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Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

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Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#131

Post by platz »

platz wrote: post #124
mathgenius wrote: post #13

The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". Anyone who has played around with these algorithms for solving decoding problems knows that they are fabulously powerful. But these message passing algorithms have two weaknesses: (A) When there is more than one solution (B) When there are small l…

> The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". no, no no. To even propose that the answer to the question of "what should we do?" can be solved by the financial system is laughable; that is pure free-market absolutism. The anwer to the question "what should we do?" is _political_ . Let us no…

Downvoters, explain your logic please

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#132

Post by ScottBurson »

andrewla wrote: post #35

My only objection to this is a semantic one -- the word "algorithm" is not being well-served here. The correct word for this sort of thing is "heuristic". The concern isn't that algorithms themselves are incorrect, the concern is that the problem they are trying to solve is a heuristic one, not a formal one. Saying "let's write an algorithm to improve search results" is meaningless; "let's design and implement a heur…

Yes, a lot of people use "algorithm" to mean simply "procedure". I'm glad to see someone besides me pointing out the distinction between algorithms, in the strict sense, and heuristics. Complaining about the misuse of technical terms is unlikely to have impact on usage in the popular press ([0]), but I think it's appropriate in a technical discussion.

One of the most egregious misuses of "algorithm", in my opinion, is the term "genetic algorithms". Not only are these not algorithms in the strict sense, but referring to the procedures as "genetic heuristics" or "genetic search" would be much clearer.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10475884

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#133

Post by nine_k »

rsync wrote: post #118
mathgenius wrote: post #13

The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". Anyone who has played around with these algorithms for solving decoding problems knows that they are fabulously powerful. But these message passing algorithms have two weaknesses: (A) When there is more than one solution (B) When there are small l…

"(B) When there are small loops in the message network" Can you elaborate a real-world example of this for the layperson ? 50k foot view is fine :)

> "(B) When there are small loops in the message network"

> Can you elaborate a real-world example of this for the layperson ? 50k foot view is fine :)

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#134

Post by projektir »

mathgenius wrote: post #56

> financial markets are the first rogue AI How about this idea: the first rogue AI was language . In terms of AI as a compositional system for storing meaning, I think this might be a reasonable position to take. Yes people, we've been playing this game for a very long time...

That sounds a lot like McLuhan's ideas.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#135

Post by fiblye »

sukilot wrote: post #99
marcosdumay wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think you give people too little credit. Nobody can stand passively watching TV the entire day every day of their lives. But even if you aren't, why would it bother you? If other people want to waste their lives on a coach in front of the TV, what makes this wrong?

> Nobody can stand passively watching TV the entire day every day of their lives. People keep saying this but directly contradicts the observed experience of the vast majority of people.

Coming from a rural area where all the farm jobs went away and half the people are unemployed: they very well can, and do.

There are three main hobbies in my hometown: drinking, heroin, and TV. things haven't changed a bit there in 20 years because nobody cares to change anything.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#136

Post by ebcode »

platz wrote: post #131
platz wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The financial system is a giant message passing algorithm. It is pretty much just a min-sum algorithm [1] whose sole purpose is to answer the question "what should we do?". no, no no. To even propose that the answer to the question of "what should we do?" can be solved by the financial system is laughable; that is pure free-market absolutism. The anwer to the question "what should we do?" is _political_ . Let us no…

Downvoters, explain your logic please

I didn't downvote you, but my best guess to why you're being downvoted is that HN skews capitalist, and confusing the market with politics is, in the capitalist p.o.v., how the game is in fact played.

Myself, I don't think that you can untangle (even in your mind) the mess that is the market (financial system, really) from the mess that is the government. They're called "voting dollars" for a reason.

I prefer to just refer to the whole big mess as "The System".

As for downvotes, I don't think they add any value to the site except to encourage groupthink, and you're better off ignoring them. Or take them as a hint that you might be on to something! :)

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#137

Post by naasking »

andrewla wrote: post #35

My only objection to this is a semantic one -- the word "algorithm" is not being well-served here. The correct word for this sort of thing is "heuristic". The concern isn't that algorithms themselves are incorrect, the concern is that the problem they are trying to solve is a heuristic one, not a formal one. Saying "let's write an algorithm to improve search results" is meaningless; "let's design and implement a heur…

> The concern isn't that algorithms themselves are incorrect, the concern is that the problem they are trying to solve is a heuristic one, not a formal one.

Heuristic problems are simply problems that aren't yet formally understood. I don't think it's meaningless to use "algorithm" in the examples you cite, as long as its understood that a good algorithmic solution requires a good model of the actual problem being solved.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#138

Post by naasking »

pishpash wrote: post #127
smallnamespace wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the most important loop that's been driving up staggering wealth inequality in our lifetimes: - Corporations and the ultra-rich tend to be the ones who try to profit-maximize the most (because people who care about other things, don't work as hard to accumulate wealth, and because corporations that profit-maximize the best tend to survive and grow better) - National governments since WW2 had done a decent job…

That's not the result of 'loops in the network'. That's the result of the memory effect of wealth. See, this is the problem with handwavy gibberish.

> That's not the result of 'loops in the network'. That's the result of the memory effect of wealth. See, this is the problem with handwavy gibberish.

I'm not sure if you're intending to be ironic, but you've achieved a gold star for irony nonetheless. Google "memory effect of wealth" to see if you come up with any meaningful, non-handwavy definition if your post was actually sincere.

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#139

Post by __s »

AlexandrB wrote: post #109
gmfawcett wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I write a faulty policy that harms people. I encode it as an algorithm, implement it as a program, and deploy it on a wide scale. Now it's automated and distributed, and it is harming people. Where is the fault --- in the program? in the algorithm? Or in the policy? Where do we fix the problem? IMO, we are quick to blame inanimate constructs, when people and their policies are the source of fault. Vilifying "algorith…

The argument I'm making is that when it comes to "human systems" like communities it's not possible to write a complete, consistent, and fair policy that can be unambiguously interpreted (i.e. by a computer). This is why Hacker News still has moderators and is not strictly governed by algorithms. "Fairness" has always been heavily contextual, and the idea that it can be distilled to a matter of "if A and B then C" is…

Human judgement can't escape Gödel

Re: Algorithms Have Already Gone Rogue

#140

Post by mattkrause »

zghst wrote: post #20
tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been bothering me, the word "algorithm" is slowly becoming known as this ambiguously scary thing.

Everyday people couldn't even tell you the definition of "algorithm", even then, they wouldn't recognize that algorithms are not only encoded into chips but also business process, legal compliance, etc.

To be fair, it's very hard to precisely define "algorithm" and actual, working scientists and philosophers have been arguing about this for ages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm_characterizations

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