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Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

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Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet none of those blockchain enthusiasts could tell me a single USP that blockchains had over storage in a normal database on any concrete use case, with the sole exception of cryptocurrencies. > And the reason is simple: all those applications have none of the properties and problems the blockchain solves - which is an elegant niche solution tailor made for mutually mistrusting entities working together on a distr…

> If you find it difficult to imagine use scenarios for blockchain, look for deficient markets caused by the need for centralized trust: monopolies and oligopolies. In each, you'll find an opportunity to create a more competitive market through blockchain. How? This is just vague handwaving that doesn't actually explain how the blockchain can solve real problems. As of now, bitcoin is the only demonstrable use case f…

> How? By simply eliminating intermediaries. A middle man always takes a cut somehow. If you can eliminate him, both parties can enjoy better rates. Here are some non vague ways blockchains can help real problems:

- What if a kind of youtube existed where advertisers paid content creators directly instead of youtube taking a large percentage? And it was censorship resistant. - What if we could build app stores that don't take a 30-50% cut. - How about an entire p2p marketplace without fees like ebay? openbazaar.org - What about getting paid for things that are impossible right now because of CC tx fees? This unlocks microtransactions & an entire attention economy (see yours.org, steemit.com, more incoming) - How about p2p digital rights management to allow artists to keep more of their income? Several in the works. - How about any service that exists to keep records? I would love to see the day Pacer was replaced by a blockchain. - What if a kind of reddit could exist without centrally moderated channels and armies of fake users? - What if p2p rented data storage could be a fraction of the price of dropbox without selling your data? - What if you could rent computing power in a p2p fashion? - What if network/VPN rules could be tokenized in the hardware and network access could be metered and charged per minute in crypto? - What if you could receive payroll as a minute by minute stream? - What if the lottery was provably fair and 1000 times less of a ripoff? - What if we could replace obviously flawed political polling with prediction markets?

I could write this list all day. Not vague handwaving, all of these things are being worked on or already exist.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#132

From the article: Can a blockchain find people offering rides, link them up with people who are trying to go somewhere, and give the two parties a transparent platform for payment? Can a blockchain act as a repository and a replay platform for TV shows, movies, and other digital media while keeping track of royalties and paying content creators? Can a blockchain check the status of airline flights and pay travelers a…

With blockchains or distributed ledger technology in general you can replace an organization of people with code and logic. You need not dependent on people/organizations doing the right thing anymore. If you look at equifax or uber (e.g., god mode stalking) that can be a huge plus. The biggest problem I see is that developers might want to seek rents from their contracts as organizations do from their activities. Th…

> With blockchains or distributed ledger technology in general you can replace an organization of people with code and logic.

I call BS on this. What application can replace people with logic attached to blockchain that also can't do the same with a simple database and code? (And I mean people doing useful work, not bureaucracy which hasn't been automated with macros yet) Blockchain is just a very slow database with distributed consensus. Apart from pure value transfer, what's the use case here where it's actually necessary?

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO the only people who knew anything about BTC in the early days were exactly the kinds of people who knew a lot about about economics, cryptography, finance, business, government, politics, and philosophy. No, it was founded by, and primarily attracted, weird conspiracy theory spouting goldbugs whose motivation was that (a) they thought a gold standard was still workable (b) they had a pathological aversion to th…

If you think the desire for sound money is weird you'll never understand why we need bitcoin. The hard core gold bugs in the Libertarian forums circa 2008 STILL don't trust bitcoin because they can't hold it in their hand. You think these are the folks that invented it? They're typically not computer savvy in the least and would rather invest in canned food with a 90 year shelf life. In that diverse group there were…

> If you think the desire for sound money is weird you'll never understand why we need bitcoin.

If you assume your conclusion, then your conclusion follows. I understand the desire, but a wider need doesn't follow, because a pure gold standard hasn't been adequate to the economy we actually have since the late 1600s. One of the big problems bitcoin has always had is that wishing doesn't make it so.

> I'll remind you that the early days of the internet attracted some weird characters too

Often literally the same characters, the cypherpunks.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you find it difficult to imagine use scenarios for blockchain, look for deficient markets caused by the need for centralized trust: monopolies and oligopolies. In each, you'll find an opportunity to create a more competitive market through blockchain. How? This is just vague handwaving that doesn't actually explain how the blockchain can solve real problems. As of now, bitcoin is the only demonstrable use case f…

> How? By simply eliminating intermediaries. A middle man always takes a cut somehow. If you can eliminate him, both parties can enjoy better rates. Here are some non vague ways blockchains can help real problems: - What if a kind of youtube existed where advertisers paid content creators directly instead of youtube taking a large percentage? And it was censorship resistant. - What if we could build app stores that d…

> What if a kind of youtube existed where advertisers paid content creators directly instead of youtube taking a large percentage? And it was censorship resistant.

Youtube taking a large percentage has nothing to do with the nature of the technology and everything to do with the fact that they have no competition due to insane network effects and highly optimized research driven UX. Also hosting, indexing, and reliably streaming hundreds of TB of high quality video is not a trivial problem. Further, you cannot escape censorship when your concern is advertising revenue.

> What if we could build app stores that don't take a 30-50% cut.

Once again, this is not a technology problem: Google and Apple will never allow app store competitors on their platform, otherwise someone would have already done this (and it was done during the early iPhone days with the Cydia store available only by breaking Apple's security - no blockchain required)

> What about getting paid for things that are impossible right now because of CC tx fees?

The same problem exists with bitcoin tx fees such that all the proposed solutions to this problem involve finding a way to avoid the blockchain at all costs.

> This unlocks microtransactions & an entire attention economy (see yours.org, steemit.com, more incoming)

Microtransactions are not practical on the blockchain and most microtransaction concepts are DOA because nobody except crypto-enthusiast wants to pay 10 cents to upvote memes and cat pictures when they can do that for free, with a better selection, on sites like reddit. There is probably some limited potential for microtransactions when it comes to gaming or maybe publishing content, but once again, the real problem has very little to do with technology and much more to do with the fact that most content is crap and people don't want to pay for it.

> How about p2p digital rights management to allow artists to keep more of their income

Once again, not a tech problem. People would happily pay the artist if the artist self-published, but most don't do that because publishing through a platform or another distributor is the only practical option for discoverability. Once you're discovered, the payment aspect is a non-issue, e.g. famous artists who already deploy "pay what you want" style stores (Radiohead, Louis CK, Humble Bundle etc).

> How about any service that exists to keep records? I would love to see the day Pacer was replaced by a blockchain

Why? What problem does this solve? Storing records is already a solved problem. There are plenty of non-blockchain techniques for storing, auditing, and cryptographically verifying and securing records without any of the PoW drawbacks. Please offer even one practical example.

> What if a kind of reddit could exist without centrally moderated channels and armies of fake users

First of all, the blockchain does not solve the "fake user" problem, so I'm not sure what that means, but centralized moderation is not a problem for most people who just want to browse content and don't really care if someone gets banned for spamming "nigger" in comments. For those that really care about totally unbridled free-speech there are already non-blockchain alternatives like voat.co... what does a blockchain bring to the table?

> What if p2p rented data storage could be a fraction of the price of dropbox without selling your data

Economics of scale guarantees you'll never be able to beat a centralized solution like AWS when it comes to this type of thing. You might see some cheaper options for a time, but once the market catches up to the fact that AWS is achieving orders of magnitude cheaper storage than a faux meshnet of consumer harddrives, you'll find that this idea is totally impractical.

> What if network/VPN rules could be tokenized in the hardware and network access could be metered and charged per minute in crypto

Interesting idea, but nobody wants this.

> What if you could receive payroll as a minute by minute stream

Interesting idea, but there's no reason that employers would adopt this.

> What if the lottery was provably fair and 1000 times less of a ripoff

Not really a concern for those that operate the lottery.

> What if we could replace obviously flawed political polling with prediction markets

Vague, impractical and fraught with its own flaws.

> I could write this list all day.

Yes, but like 99% of blockchain related ideas, the problems that are actually solved are already solved without the insane drawbacks of PoW.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#135
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, it can't. The hard part of Uber isn't the app and the architecture that gets cars to meet together, it's pulling all the shady under-belly moves to avoid taxi regulation or lobby it in your favor, all while being profitable. This is where the blockchain shines. You're not going to be able to sue a Dapp, or order it to be taken down. The only enforcement mechanism becomes going after end-users, which is much more…

> This is where the blockchain shines. You're not going to be able to sue a Dapp, or order it to be taken down Why not? If someone makes an app, which has to happen for a service to get users, that’s an endpoint which can be sued. The point where actual money is converted is similarly exposed, and attempts at obfuscation run into existing money laundering laws. Finally, a blockchain protocol which cannot comply with…

You're right that the city can sue the coder, though the odds of success are greatly reduced relative to suing a company that runs a ridesharing service on its own servers, given the coder is not running a server, but they can't sue to have the Dapp taken down. And if the municipalities get too aggressive, the coders can go anonymous.

>>The point where actual money is converted is similarly exposed, and attempts at obfuscation run into existing money laundering laws.

This is vastly more difficult than a court order to freeze a bank account. Maybe in the future it will get easier, but maybe not. As it is, a Dapp has far betters odds of both surviving censorship and profiting its maker in the face of municipal opposition than a centrally managed server.

>>Finally, a blockchain protocol which cannot comply with legal requirements can be banned entirely

Censoring a blockchain is much harder to do than sue a company in Silicon Valley to stop operating their service in a city.

It's something not even within the legal powers of municipalities, so right there the blockchain is far harder to stop than a traditional company.

I doubt the US wants to become a country that prosecutes people for running software, or imposes a national internet firewall. Countries will have to choose between having an open internet and having the power to restrict commerce. Hopefully most will choose the former.

>>since they require public access, non-trivial data volumes, and regular updates blockchains are less resistant to filtering attempts.

No, it requires much more than what you imply to ban a blockchain. Users can use lightweight verification, which needs very little data, and rely on full nodes outside of the country. A government would have to ban TOR and VPS, and really any encrypted communication into/out-of the country to have any hope of stopping the blockchain.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#136
post #19

My understanding is that a blockchain is a distributed, immutable database. There must be some serious dollaroos floating around in consultancy fees for such a simple idea to be cropping up constantly and as a solution to almost every problem.

> My understanding is that a blockchain is a distributed, immutable database.

Then your understanding is wrong. It's document timestamping system, dragging along all that data is just a side effect of an implementation detail.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With blockchains or distributed ledger technology in general you can replace an organization of people with code and logic. You need not dependent on people/organizations doing the right thing anymore. If you look at equifax or uber (e.g., god mode stalking) that can be a huge plus. The biggest problem I see is that developers might want to seek rents from their contracts as organizations do from their activities. Th…

> With blockchains or distributed ledger technology in general you can replace an organization of people with code and logic. I call BS on this. What application can replace people with logic attached to blockchain that also can't do the same with a simple database and code? (And I mean people doing useful work, not bureaucracy which hasn't been automated with macros yet) Blockchain is just a very slow database with…

Of course you can always use traditional databases and code to implement the functionality but then you need someone who runs the code! Even if all code is open source you need a way to verify that the code is actually running, which generally translates into trusting a third party – the company in question (e.g., uber). The third party can be completely removed with DLT — that‘s the unique feature. You don’t need companies anymore but can have direct interactions between users facilitated by a smart contract.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trustless doesn't mean reputationless. A blockchain based Uber-like service would function similarly with reviews by former passengers for individual drivers.

Reputation requirements result in higher prices for buyers, as it's hard for new entrants to come along and gain meaningful business, while the older entities suddenly have the incentive to "milk" the reputation they earned. Meanwhile, with a credit card I can buy a product from Amazon or some joe-schmoe site nobody ever heard of, and have a guarantee that Visa will back me up if the latter is a scam.

You're paying those prices for Visa's reputation. Visa takes what, 2-3% of every transaction? Also, Visa has a record of every transaction you've ever spent. And as the Equifax case has shown, even big players aren't immune to hacking. You know what's pretty resilient to hacking? The blockchain itself.

At any rate, the advantage of Bitcoin/Ether is that sending Joe Schmoe your money doesn't mean you've exposed your credit card number and billing address (likely also your physical address) to Joe Schmoe. So there's pros and cons to either system. Refunds have existed since well before credit cards were a thing. Does it require a bit more of "buyer beware" ideology? Sure, but I don't think that's any different than a cash-based society.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reputation requirements result in higher prices for buyers, as it's hard for new entrants to come along and gain meaningful business, while the older entities suddenly have the incentive to "milk" the reputation they earned. Meanwhile, with a credit card I can buy a product from Amazon or some joe-schmoe site nobody ever heard of, and have a guarantee that Visa will back me up if the latter is a scam.

You're paying those prices for Visa's reputation. Visa takes what, 2-3% of every transaction? Also, Visa has a record of every transaction you've ever spent. And as the Equifax case has shown, even big players aren't immune to hacking. You know what's pretty resilient to hacking? The blockchain itself. At any rate, the advantage of Bitcoin/Ether is that sending Joe Schmoe your money doesn't mean you've exposed your c…

I'm paying roughly 3% out of which I get back 2% through cashback on my credit card. For a net fee of 1% I get buyer protection and dispute resolution in case I and seller disagree. The higher the sum, the more likely I am to be interested in such protection.

The move to chipped credit cards (or Apple/Android Pay) also shields my real card number and makes information unusable in case of hacking. I already hide my address by having the card statements go to a PO Box and using that as my billing address, but I know that's not a widespread practice and some institutions forbid that.

Re: Blockchains: How They Work and Why They’ll Change the World

#140
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your comment. Looking at all the doubt and hate about blockchain & cryptocurrencies on HN lately, I personally can't help but wonder where have all innovators gone.

Confirmation Bias at work. You're invested, so you want it to take off. Yet none of those blockchain enthusiasts could tell me a single USP that blockchains had over storage in a normal database on any concrete use case, with the sole exception of cryptocurrencies. And the reason is simple: all those applications have none of the properties and problems the blockchain solves - which is an elegant niche solution tailo…

What on earth tells you I'm "invested" ;) ? I'm just curious. I still don't know why you're so vindicative, I don't like either when companies use the buzzword "blockchain" in a wrong way.
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