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Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

urbit.org

131–140 of 172 posts

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#131
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please identify one concrete computing action that I cannot do with Linux/Windows/Mac that Urbit enables. In other words, what is Urbit's "Killer Feature"? Cause I'm not seeing one. And a runner up question: Is Urbit still heavily dependent on unreleased root node code? In other words, is this distributed computing just a load of hype covering over a overly complicated star topology?

> Is Urbit still heavily dependent on unreleased root node code? In other words, is this distributed computing just a load of hype covering over a overly complicated star topology? Urbit has always been fully open source as far as I know (at least since 2013). It is true that Tlon runs some of the galaxies and stars that most people use, but that's just because other galaxy owners haven't decided it's worth it to do…

That's not decentralisation. That's federation.

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#132
post #71
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By maturity I meant something like "continuous opeartion for a year with cryptographically signed live update (including cryptography themselves, implemented in VM)", which Urbit did. But okay, I am also interested in competing projects of any maturity.

Because implementing cryptography in a bespoke VM is an important feature? Why? That's the kind of thing cryptography engineers try to avoid.

You haven't named even one competing project. I think it is a good justification for interest in Urbit.

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#133
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of those people that get it, so I'll try to explain it without going off the deep end and waxing poetically about planets or whatever. Urbit is a platform for building decentralized apps. To that end, it's a tightly integrated set of different features that play into that: an identity system so that all the apps can refer to the same people by the same handle, a typed RPC network for easy message sending, and…

Federated systems are the middle ground between full centralisation (one provider) and decentralisation (everyone is a provider). They allow users to choose between the two depending on what they actually want. With decentralised systems you are forced to run all computation and store all data yourself. The average user isn't going to buy their own server and run it 24/7. That's incredibly wasteful. Even in the best…

That's pretty much the end goal of Urbit, though. It doesn't want everyone running a server in their closet, just a server in general which includes on AWS. The point is that it should be easy enough to control that your mother can do it: pay eth, click a button, get urbit running in the cloud should be the final flow.

Having a common platform, all using the same RPC and identity and network layer, allows for the removal of lock-in across different Urbit apps.

And since it's your own server, you /can/ send to Facebook friends from your Urbit clone just by hitting the API endpoints. Migrating to an Urbit clone of a centralized service should be gradual to fight back against network effects: first make a UI frontend for the service from Urbit, then make it mirror content on Urbit back, and gradually transition over. GNU Social does this with Twitter, but kinda badly, and can be locked out from one central API token because everyone has to go though their node.

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#134
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others, including myself, have noticed this too and it reminds us of something else a little closer to home: namely, what happens to Scientologists and the like after they've been in the cult a while. Even the Scientologists who later leave still think in terms of engrams and body thetans. I think Curtis Yarvin is a master huckster and wordsmith, but near as I can tell what's good about Urbit isn't original and what'…

>>finally he plays the same semantic shellgame with his words he plays with his political essays, to convince you that the horrible political views he has aren't so horrible. I suggest you leave your ideological biases out of your assessment of Urbit the technology. We all have our political beliefs - mine are hard libertarian, yours are hard feminist/leftist - but hopefully we can put those aside when assessing tech…

Are you implying that anyone who hates neoreaction is a hardcore feminist/leftist or is there context I'm missing?

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Unix and Linux are broken. So instead, I should load up Urbit, locate on a planet, spin up a garglemitz on the spitzenspeil with the hoon japing over the nock. If you add Xenu, Body Thetans, e-meters, I think you might be on to something! -------------------- No seriously. There are wrong things with the monolothic kernel as well as microkernels. Theyre design tradeoffs. But none of the existing, well establishe…

Best comment so far - you put words on what disturbs me so much about Urbit. It takes the technobabble to a whole new level. I don't care if they succeed, I want no part of it.

Thank you.

Given my proclivities in the occult, I do indeed have to watch out for real life cults. Now, I know this document is primarily for esoteric religion, it also very much applies to cults in other senses. But there's a few that really sticks out with me.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

To me, this is a damning list of reasoning that Urbit should be considered a Cult, and thusly stayed away from. The only exception I give is, is to peeling back their crypto-jargon for any new concepts of computer science we in the larger community should document, understand, and use.

Interacting with this community only leads to poisonous cult mindsets that can easily damage your mind. Beware.

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1. Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

Go look up anyone under Curtis Yarvin. Even in the HN thread. He is "The Master", and you are just too stupid to understand his pure clear thought.

2. Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

The evidence here is the appropriate HN posts, that give scorn for highlighting major issues with the language, choices in the network architecture, and choices elsewhere in Urbit as a whole. Anyone questioning anything with Urbit is either attacked, derided, ignored, or pushed aside usinng "Whataboutism".

3. Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

You need to Arvo the hoon into the lolwut iron branch thats in a wet case. WHAT HOW DARE YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. You're just stupid, I guess.

4. Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

By definition, they all use Urbit to communicate. I looked in Freenode #urbit , and its something "superior" called tahc.. Yet if you look how Urbit works, any higher class user can disable sub-users' accounts. They call them stars/planets. Whatever. But your superior owners of your network block/address can censor you. And since it's federated, NOT decentralized or distributed, your id is easily blocked.

5. Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

Insert all the completely new jargon. Instead, it separates users from IT anywhere else. This is the same thing Scientology does, so people feel special and "connected" only within their clique. Of course it doesn't translate out, so it can be used as a differentiator of "Those who know".

6. Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

Lockin is their way of handling this. Obviously they aren't holding guns to your head. But it's more of not wanting to cut losses because there "could" be something.

7. Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

Mencius Moldbug / Curtis Yarvin. I need say no more.

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Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to what I'm saying. If you want to exclude him, the very least you owe him is to paste an actual quote written by him as justification. Without that, this is straight-up libel.

Libel? That’s laughable, given that the only thing I pointed to was Yarvin’s very clear intellectual ties to the dark enlightenment school of thought, further reinforced by his connections to people like Thiel and Bannon. I am not going to go spelunking for quotes just to win some karma on the internet. I have better things to do with my time. Obviously.

Right, so you get to drop a molotov here in hopes that you'll sway people from supporting Chris. The moment you have to do real work, you're out.

You posted here because you thought you'd influence people. My mind is open. Do you want to influence them or not?

It's not even hard. A single quote along the lines of "I support murdering people I dislike" would do it.

(Meanwhile, soon: "'I support murdering people I dislike' -- quote penned under handle sillysaurus3 casts serious doubts about the author's moral compass")

You're not even allowing for the possibility that his followers took his writings and morphed them into whatever ideas offended you. (You still haven't specified those.) If hypothetically some alt-right fanatics seized pg's essays and lauded them as an example of white supremacy, are we to exclude Paul from polite society too?

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > One of the most persuasive things you could do in this situation would be to post a quote written by Chris. Posting a quote from Moldbug would be the second most persuasive thing. Failing either of those, are we supposed to just take your word for it that the dude should be excluded from society? > This whole "label and exclude" thing is for the birds. Why not judge i…

This is a great reply, and I felt myself being persuaded by it. Then I thought about it. Your criticism of his writings appears to boil down to "He's not taking a stance." Is that an accurate summary? If so, then it's impossible to be ok with excluding him.

Sounds to me like the criticism is more along the lines of “his argument is intentionally occluded by dog whistle writing”.

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 > One of the most persuasive things you could do in this situation would be to post a quote written by Chris. Posting a quote from Moldbug would be the second most persuasive thing. Failing either of those, are we supposed to just take your word for it that the dude should be excluded from society? > This whole "label and exclude" thing is for the birds. Why not judge i…

This is a great reply, and I felt myself being persuaded by it. Then I thought about it. Your criticism of his writings appears to boil down to "He's not taking a stance." Is that an accurate summary? If so, then it's impossible to be ok with excluding him.

I'm ok with not listening to him, not to take him serious. I wouldn't be okay with exclusion, out of principle (I'm in the camp "talk with the fringe in public spaces and needle them till their inconsistencies show", I think non-platformism is the only "toxic" thing there is in this context). But to me he still has to prove being worth active inclusion.

Flippantly, my criticism is "he's hinting at provocative ideas without committing" or more aggressively "he's a weasly,trolling edgelord".

You can't debate his views because as far as we know, they do not exist, he's just using sophistry and language tricks to either dog whistle (which you can call out directly, but he can always claim you got it wrong) or to make room for everyone to fill gaps with their own emotional/pattern matched reaction (which lets you argue against things he never said).

To me, once someone sends me or I find a writing of his where he clearly states what his ideas are, he'll be worth listening to, and as I said, I'll happily needle him till I have something I can intellectually engage in and debate. But I won't put in effort to read his blabla to find that.

Because, you know, if you are actually insightful and actually care, you'll make it understandable and concise

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great reply, and I felt myself being persuaded by it. Then I thought about it. Your criticism of his writings appears to boil down to "He's not taking a stance." Is that an accurate summary? If so, then it's impossible to be ok with excluding him.

Sounds to me like the criticism is more along the lines of “his argument is intentionally occluded by dog whistle writing”.

exactly :)

Re: Bootstrapping Urbit from Ethereum

#140
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good, well-written explanation of the most reasonable, mainstream aspects of Urbit, leaving the impression that it's essentially like a P2P version of AWS Lambda. But of course, that's not all it is. It's also a ground-up reinvention of mainstream functional programming languages like Lisp, built on the foundation of an abstract virtual machine in which the "decrement" operation can be performed natively on…

> You don't have to memorize the new names they've come up with for most of the ASCII punctuation characters, like "gal", "gar", and "hax" for " ", and "#", "but it helps". A normal engineer's reaction to a system that tells it that it will help to remember a new name for the pound sign is to ask "Why? What fresh horror lurks in the deeper meaning of your new name for the percent sign? And why won't you tell me befor…

The reference docs honestly aren't the best place to start when learning Hoon, as backwards as that may sound. I've found the tutorial docs[0] to be much more helpful when first exploring Urbit, and there's a fair amount of good community documentation listed on the docs page[1] as well.

[0]: https://urbit.org/docs/arvo/

[1]: https://urbit.org/docs/

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