Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down • Hacker News Board

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#131

Post by donovanm » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 8:14 PM UTC

Techonomicon wrote: post #16

thegayngler wrote: post #5

These bootcamps are too basic for starters. They never take you beyond the basics. Secondly, the industry has changed. You need to know more things than you did previously. Even computer science grads aren't necessarily "ready" for the workforce. Education is behind in general instead of ingrained into the community with which it wishes to operate. They are always lagging behind or even way behind. On some level I fe…

We are way past a time of loyalty amongst employees. Not worth a company's time and money to do this for someone that may / may not be around after. And locking someone in because of it just leaves a bad taste in the employees mouth.

I would argue the companies pay the price of training anyways via the higher cost of hiring the hard to find specialist.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#132

Post by seangrogg » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 8:27 PM UTC

"While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies"

As a bootcamp grad (Hack Reactor) this is only partially true; while you can easily skate by without needing to learn any of these things there are many who elect into them.

Anecdotally, from my cohort:

* Testing and version control were a part of the entire curriculum from the first sprint to our capstone code freeze. Basic git was drilled into us, as well as exploration of more involved git workflows when we began our project phase. We learned about TDD and BDD and had a sprint dedicated to setting up our own tests (with tests against our tests).

* People could elect to take product management/scrum master roles in their project teams (of which there were 3); some people elected to take these positions every project, some avoided them, but most served in a managerial capacity at least once.

* Deployment (admittedly most to Heroku, only one to AWS) was a soft requirement of every project and it was part of one of our sprints.

Outside of my cohort, many people spent extensive time working with things that weren't a core part of what we did. During my database sprint my partner and I decided against the offered MySQL sprint and wrote our own Postgres branch. Many people took deep dives into algorithms and data structures - bloom filters, red-black/b-trees, various sort implementations, etc. Some project teams built CI pipelines and deployed on AWS/GCS/Azure. Overall, while these things aren't a part of the core curriculum you'll find many people electively choose to take on far more than what's mentioned.

And I learned _none_ of that in my _full year_ of CS.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#133

Post by brooklyn_ashey » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

realitygrill wrote: post #127

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many students don't understand why they go into their chosen fields at first. They say it is "passion for---" when really, it just seems like a stable, responsible profession that their parents approve of. Along the way, hopefully, with the help of fantastic teachers, a true love of the subject emerges, deeper interests within it are explored and uncovered, and a great doctor or lawyer is made. (My own PCP and anothe…

I tend to hold the opposing view, but appreciate that you made this point. It's definitely my experience that people who worked mastering at the performing arts, classics/literature, or even professional gaming have something that helps them persevere and navigate through a new field. However the idea that "a true love of the subject emerges", "the help of fantastic teachers".. I don't think I've ever met anyone who…

One "enters the field" of the arts, classics, history, law, medicine, and computer science often as children. The difference in paths taken is this: when one enters the arts or literature or history, there is a good chance one will have to leave it at some point. Many lawyers are former "writers" who while in law school get inspired by a great constitutional law professor or who while in the early days of their profession get inspired by a colleague who becomes a mentor and helps them form a new identity as writer who is also really really into law...and as I said, many doctors I know were former artists and musicians who bring that same drive toward innovation they learned in the arts to medicine. Most of those people encounter a great mentor while in their residency who helps them find a new inspiration. But a great teacher can be the content itself, or an innovator one learns about. Then, they are on that path to excellence, and even more so than someone who just did medicine the whole time. They have a depth and breadth that other doctors lack, which is why med schools have started to include literature courses these days. (i'll look for a good link on this) My point is, no one is studying actual Dijkstra in a bootcamp and he doesn't work in one either. There may be possible future Dijkstras or the like attending the bootcamp, but they often feel like they jumped into the intellectual equivalent of a quick Happy Meal when they really wanted a quick plate of gorgeous figs. Still quick, but somehow more inspiring...more nutritious.

Computer scientists often begin as children (like the others) but never have to leave their field because after all the gaming and taking stuff apart and building, they go on to be computer scientists who have excellent money making prospects when compared to literature majors.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#134

Post by gaius » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

jgmmo wrote: post #49

sdenton4 wrote: post #20

So I think this is completely wrong. Bootcamps are providing a route to jobs that doesn't involve taking another for years it for a university degree; it's a massive gain in efficiency. By being smaller, bootcamps should have more ability to pivot content to match market demands, and give students advice on directions to persue. Front end development needs for entry level people are getting satisfied, so it's time to…

University education is absolutely an overcrowded space. Most colleges do not live up to their cost. Students are starting to notice and choose other options. It's also well known theres too many law schools and too many lawyers. It's a bad market to enter into now.

How many STEM PhDs/year vs tenure track positions?

As as a civilisation we massively over-educate, but under-train...

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#135

Post by Kiro » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 9:19 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #122

mythrwy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think it's likely the number of "will not hire fresh from bootcamps" is limited to the 5 which explicitly state? No, of course it isn't. The only question is how much larger the number is. That is not assuming but extrapolating and is how statistics works. You know some bootcamp grads that got jobs. Great. That isn't in dispute though. Perhaps some bootcamp grads getting jobs is what led to the "will not hire…

And some companies hire bootcamp grads and only want to hire more. There's no evidence for an industry trend here, just people letting their personal biases get the better of them (all around).

Your standpoint is exactly like what you're criticizing here but the other way around.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#136

Post by daotoad » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #70

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That stuff is EASIER to learn than actual software engineering skills. All you got to do is spend a couple months cramming from the book cracking the code interview. You have got to be joking right? Not only is the intro-level algorithms class in universities a known-difficult class almost everywhere, MS and PhD students continue to try and discover better algorithms and new data structures. Sure if you're working…

The PhD and MS stuff is not being asked in interviews. Yes, that stuff is hard. Tech interviews are 40 minutes max. There is only so much stuff that can be asked and programmed in such a short amount of time. The stuff being asked in tech interviews is "traverse a tree in this interesting way". There are only so many ways to traverse a tree. And no, I am not talking about crud interviews, I am talking about Google in…

Tech interviews are 40 minutes max? Where are you interviewing?

I have seen far more 6+ hour interview loops that 40 minute ones.

Maybe each session within the full loop accounts for 40 minutes.

That being said, people have their pet questions they use to sort the wheat from the chaff--if you can't fizzbuzz your way out of a wet paper bag, I am not hiring you. The best questions are more about process than the final answer. Solve an easyish problem, add some features, add some more features. What other ways could you have solved that problem? Why did you choose this way? When would you use a different approach? How does your solution scale?

The worst questions are gotcha questions with a right and wrong answer, `what does the C99 standard indicate is the correct size of a stack frame?`

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#137

Post by jefflombardjr » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 10:21 PM UTC

Jemmeh wrote: post #125

jefflombardjr wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point, how is that a boot camp and not a paid tutorial? Why would anyone pay for online course work when there is so much available for free from places like MIT and Stanford? I paid for a boot camp to have access to an instructor with industry experience. Not to learn language syntax and build projects.

Well 42 is a bit different than most bootcamps. 42 Code School is free, it's funded by a French billionaire Xavier Niel who made his fortune from telecommunications and technology. There is a branch in Paris and a branch in Silicon Valley. I'd say it's bootcamp-ish in that it's only programming-relevant coursework you work loads of hours, and you don't get a degree, but it's supposed to be 3-5 years total. Last I saw…

Very cool!

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#138

Post by jefflombardjr » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

swyx wrote: post #124

jefflombardjr wrote: post #47

As someone who went to a boot camp, this doesn't surprise me at all. I don't think it's worth it for most people. BUT, I don't see them going away entirely. I'm thrilled with the boot camp I went to, and would do it all over again. Hear me out... > Are Coding Boot Camps Worth It? - If the first time you're touching code is at a boot camp, it's not worth it. By the time I had started a boot camp, I had been reading bo…

which did you go to?

https://pdxcodeguild.com/ They have a great community.

I was also seriously considering https://www.appacademy.io/, I was impressed by their interview process and what they expected you to do prior to getting there, but don't know anything else about the school.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#139

Post by corbett3000 » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 11:14 PM UTC

We've found that coding boot camps do not produce highly skilled devs. They output over priced junior talent who believe they're all of a suddenly highly sought after "full stack engineers" worthy of $70k+ salaries because the boot camps tell them that's what their worth - and then they take a 20% recuiting fee. If we see a candidate apply that has a coding camp on their resume it's almost always a pass.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#140

Post by realitygrill » Fri, Sep 08, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

brooklyn_ashey wrote: post #133

realitygrill wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to hold the opposing view, but appreciate that you made this point. It's definitely my experience that people who worked mastering at the performing arts, classics/literature, or even professional gaming have something that helps them persevere and navigate through a new field. However the idea that "a true love of the subject emerges", "the help of fantastic teachers".. I don't think I've ever met anyone who…

One "enters the field" of the arts, classics, history, law, medicine, and computer science often as children. The difference in paths taken is this: when one enters the arts or literature or history, there is a good chance one will have to leave it at some point. Many lawyers are former "writers" who while in law school get inspired by a great constitutional law professor or who while in the early days of their profe…

Fair enough. I myself tried to transition to software, but went through Hacker School, now known as the Recurse Center. They're rather closer to a good meal, and are tuition-free.

I do know that medical schools have been trying to attract individuals with other backgrounds -- was recruited myself, and admissions committee members told me one reason is that doctors have the impression they may have screwed themselves by being monoculturally ignorant of economic forces, technology, etc. So they're encouraging people who aren't from the traditional biological sciences backgrounds.

I'd expect the med school literature courses to have about as much effect as med school statistics courses, though -- little to none. Plus, there's been interest in shortening med school.