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Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

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Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#131

Post by derping69 »

StudyAnimal wrote: post #104
mc32 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore, a multicultural society, has a pretty progressive baby bonus[1], among other countries. They think that's what works best for their society. They could import labor, but they prefer do it their way. It seems to work for them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_bonus

No it's bad for society. Kids cost money, immigrants earn money. Penalize breeding, encourage immigration.

Will those uneducated immigrants earn money when they are no longer needed due to automation? If you have to pay to educate them anyway why not just have your population have kids instead of importing?

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#132

Post by pandaman »

forapurpose wrote: post #78
petre wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. This works in agriculture to some extent, but that's sector where automation already displaced most jobs and it will continue to do so.

> In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. The workers did not control the assets, unelected totalitarian dictators did, despite endless propaganda to the contrary. I'm not saying the idea works, but the Eastern Block was not a test of it.

In theory the workers did not have full control over the means of production because they could not sell them or destroy them but as far as using them - there was no dictator standing next to every lathe or tractor and telling them what to do. This mainly resulted in people stealing shit from their workplaces though. Few Russian sayings from that period:

Все вокруг колхозное, все вокруг мое (Everything around me belongs to the collective farm, everything is mine)

Тащи с работы каждый гвоздь, ты здесь хозяин, а не гость (Steal every last nail from work, you are the master here, not a guest).

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#133

Post by ufufgztdjfydyx »

pandaman wrote: post #132
forapurpose wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. The workers did not control the assets, unelected totalitarian dictators did, despite endless propaganda to the contrary. I'm not saying the idea works, but the Eastern Block was not a test of it.

In theory the workers did not have full control over the means of production because they could not sell them or destroy them but as far as using them - there was no dictator standing next to every lathe or tractor and telling them what to do. This mainly resulted in people stealing shit from their workplaces though. Few Russian sayings from that period: Все вокруг колхозное, все вокруг мое (Everything around me belo…

Why would people steal from work if their basic needs were provided for and they felt the rules in place were legitimate?

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#134

Post by pandaman »

ufufgztdjfydyx wrote: post #133
pandaman wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory the workers did not have full control over the means of production because they could not sell them or destroy them but as far as using them - there was no dictator standing next to every lathe or tractor and telling them what to do. This mainly resulted in people stealing shit from their workplaces though. Few Russian sayings from that period: Все вокруг колхозное, все вокруг мое (Everything around me belo…

Why would people steal from work if their basic needs were provided for and they felt the rules in place were legitimate?

Why would people do something for their own benefit and without serious (if weighted by chance of getting caught) negative consequences?

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#135

Post by alphaalpha101 »

matt4077 wrote: post #113
alphaalpha101 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1% growth is completely irrelevant. That's what I said: effectively in recession. The difference between 1% growth and 1% shrink is nothing. There's no reason we shouldn't be growing much more quickly. But we're not going to do so in a neoliberal world. That's just not going to happen. Draining the wealth of society to a small group of people that spend little money just doesn't drive growth. People can't spend and d…

Growth in 2016 was 4%, not 1% and not -1%: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&... It seems like NZ is growing at a pace of around 3%p.a. You're free to argue that there's some fantastic economic system that only you know, but most people will rightfully be sceptical of such claims unless you have a few examples of countries at NZ's high level of development growing at a much higher pace. Othe…

>Growth in 2016 was 4%, not 1% and not -1%: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&....

No it was not. Not per-capita. Growth ignoring population changes is literally completely irrelevant. It has never been relevant.

>It seems like NZ is growing at a pace of around 3%p.a. You're free to argue that there's some fantastic economic system that only you know, but most people will rightfully be sceptical of such claims unless you have a few examples of countries at NZ's high level of development growing at a much higher pace.

NZ before the horrific and inhumane neoliberal reforms of the 1980s ruined this beautiful country was growing at a much faster rate that it has ever grown since.

>Other than that I've lost track of what were arguing. It appears as if you just start making completely unrelated arguments when you're proven wrong.

Lol

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#136

Post by petre »

ufufgztdjfydyx wrote: post #133
pandaman wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory the workers did not have full control over the means of production because they could not sell them or destroy them but as far as using them - there was no dictator standing next to every lathe or tractor and telling them what to do. This mainly resulted in people stealing shit from their workplaces though. Few Russian sayings from that period: Все вокруг колхозное, все вокруг мое (Everything around me belo…

Why would people steal from work if their basic needs were provided for and they felt the rules in place were legitimate?

Beacuse when the state/proletariat steals from from the rich and gives away the loot to everyone else, the recipients of the loot are esentially the thief's accomplice, therefore stealing is okay. Also there is little to no private property, so taking out of the collective good is not technically stealing, like pandaman exemplified with the Russian proverbs above.

Maybe their basic needs were provided when everything was nice and rosy, after they looted. But when the economic situation went south, then you've got food rations, curfew and other stuff that is only appropriate during wartime. Also add arbitrary justice to that. For instance you were entitled to a 250g pack of butter, a box of eight eggs, a glass of oil every month and a bread every day. This happened while the ones in power were more equal than the rest. Yes, that's only providing basic needs and people were sick of it. So everyone stole from work. They stole food, they stole screws, they stole lamp oil just in case the electricity went off. They stole whatever they could lay their hands on. Some of the people stole just to get back at the commies who robbed their elderly relatives and then integrated them into the new and great communist society.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#137

Post by dang »

petre wrote: post #66

At least it's better than paying for immigrants that forced their way into your country as the Germans are doing now.

This breaks the HN guidelines against flamewars and political battle. We ban accounts that do this, so please read them and follow them if you want to continue commenting here.

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We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15078466 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#138

Post by dang »

StudyAnimal wrote: post #106
petre wrote: post #66

At least it's better than paying for immigrants that forced their way into your country as the Germans are doing now.

Go away racist. Refugees need a safe place and germany needs fresh foreign blood to keep its society running. It's a win win. German children are going to take a long time before they start contributing and even then they will end up on Hartz IV before they accept a normal job.

> Go away racist

Please don't respond to a bad comment by violating the HN guidelines yourself. Indeed, please don't respond to bad comments at all. Flag them instead:

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Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#139

Post by StudyAnimal »

derping69 wrote: post #131
StudyAnimal wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's bad for society. Kids cost money, immigrants earn money. Penalize breeding, encourage immigration.

Will those uneducated immigrants earn money when they are no longer needed due to automation? If you have to pay to educate them anyway why not just have your population have kids instead of importing?

The uneducated ones we need to fill the jobs that educated locals won't do and won't be automated in their lifetimes. But a lot of them are educated and we need them too.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#140

Post by aoeuasdf1 »

petre wrote: post #107
forapurpose wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. The workers did not control the assets, unelected totalitarian dictators did, despite endless propaganda to the contrary. I'm not saying the idea works, but the Eastern Block was not a test of it.

My poiny exactly. Giving too much power to the state would only turn it into a dictatorship (even if it's a tax dictatorship) for the ones in power will eventually sieze that power for themselves. Shared ownership of production means is possible w/o a nanny state if the shareholders of a private company are also it's employees. But that doesn't really work well in practice, otherwise we would have cooperatives compar…

A co-op has no way to raise capital and expand quickly. They have to create the capital themselves by being profitable, or by reaching into their own pockets.
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