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Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

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Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#131

Post by paki123 »

lisper wrote: post #125
stinos wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's something that is being done to you. It's nice if that works for you but for me it totally doesn't. I have once also tried to teach myself to think that way, but in the end figured out I'd just be lying to myself by trying to come up with an alternate formulation of a problem which makes it sounds less of a problem but in reality doesn't help as it does not find a solution. For example me being depressed is just…

> me being depressed is just me I think you're missing a subtle but important distinction. Yes, it's you, but it's not just you. There is no "just" you. You are not a unified whole, notwithstanding that that's how you perceive yourself. That perception is an illusion. You are in fact more complicated than that. At the very least there is the conscious you and the unconscious you. There is the part of you that has age…

But is the pain suppose to be there? Is it valid pain? For example, I see myself being jealous or anxious or angry. Even if I can rationalize to a level where I can convince that the feelings may not be warranted, there's just a few seconds of relief; but that flood of negativity always comes back. Does that pain have a place, even if we deem it stupid or pointless?

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#132

Post by lisper »

paki123 wrote: post #131
lisper wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> me being depressed is just me I think you're missing a subtle but important distinction. Yes, it's you, but it's not just you. There is no "just" you. You are not a unified whole, notwithstanding that that's how you perceive yourself. That perception is an illusion. You are in fact more complicated than that. At the very least there is the conscious you and the unconscious you. There is the part of you that has age…

But is the pain suppose to be there? Is it valid pain? For example, I see myself being jealous or anxious or angry. Even if I can rationalize to a level where I can convince that the feelings may not be warranted, there's just a few seconds of relief; but that flood of negativity always comes back. Does that pain have a place, even if we deem it stupid or pointless?

I don't know what the difference between "valid" and "invalid" pain is. The point is not that it's valid or invalid, the point is that it's not up to you whether or not you feel it. The only thing that's up to you is how you act on it. Understanding that can make it feel a little less painful, especially over time. In particular, if you use that insight to break the cycle of self-reinforcing behavior (like sitting at home wallowing in self-pity) then it can actually help.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#133

Post by naasking »

Boothroid wrote: post #118
naasking wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more you think like that, the less control you have.

Control might be an illusion - we are getting into the realms of philosophy here, but some argue there is no such thing as free will.

If control were an illusion, then my desire to raise my arm would not result in me raising my arm. The fact is, desires, wishes and so on, have direct causal influence on actual physiological and psychological states.

Free Will doesn't really enter into this, so we don't have to enter that rabbit hole.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#134

Post by Boothroid »

naasking wrote: post #133
Boothroid wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Control might be an illusion - we are getting into the realms of philosophy here, but some argue there is no such thing as free will.

If control were an illusion, then my desire to raise my arm would not result in me raising my arm. The fact is, desires, wishes and so on, have direct causal influence on actual physiological and psychological states. Free Will doesn't really enter into this, so we don't have to enter that rabbit hole.

Your action might feel self willed but may in fact follow inevitably from all prior events. Individual agency could just be a creation of the mind. Personally I try not to dwell on these thoughts, but the philosophical discussions around free will cannot be dismissed simply with a wave of the hand, as you seem to be doing.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#135

Post by naasking »

Boothroid wrote: post #134
naasking wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If control were an illusion, then my desire to raise my arm would not result in me raising my arm. The fact is, desires, wishes and so on, have direct causal influence on actual physiological and psychological states. Free Will doesn't really enter into this, so we don't have to enter that rabbit hole.

Your action might feel self willed but may in fact follow inevitably from all prior events. Individual agency could just be a creation of the mind. Personally I try not to dwell on these thoughts, but the philosophical discussions around free will cannot be dismissed simply with a wave of the hand, as you seem to be doing.

Whether outcomes and desires follow from prior events isn't relevant. The fact is that outcomes follow from my desire that it be so, regardless of the source of that desire. So if you can muster the desire, there are good causal reasons to believe you can achieve that desire.

The true nature of free will and its connection to determinism simply isn't relevant to whether desires are causally connected to outcomes, and so whether this belief is well founded.

Edit: the only way out of this is to be a fatalist, whereby outcomes will always happen no matter how hard you struggle against them, that they are independent of our desires. Few people subscribe to such a view though, and if you happen to, then I can only say I'm sorry.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#136

Post by larkery »

thinkfurther wrote: post #98
larkery wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In zen there is the question, who is in control of these feelings? Where is the locus of control, and what kind of a thing is it? Where is the boundary between things inside your mind and things outside of your mind? Where does control get inserted into the process of things arising and falling away? One way of thinking about this produces a realisation that nobody is in control, but nobody has been denied or robbed…

> In zen there is the question, who is in control of these feelings? Where is the locus of control, and what kind of a thing is it? > The exterior things touch the soul in no way. They have no access to it and neither can change the mood of the soul nor move it. Rather it gives itself its mood and movement, and according to its judgements that it makes about its own dignity, it also values the exterior objects higher…

I think it would be remarkably weird if the state inside me were entirely uncoupled from 'exterior things'.

In the zen view, the 'trick' is that there are no exterior things because the distinction between the exterior and interior is artificial. Processes of change may reach across that boundary just as they cross any other boundary we care to draw, so there is no absolutely self-governed component.

Assuming (perhaps wrongly, let me know if I'm overreaching) that you see your self as a stoic or happy to interpret them, what do you think the Aurelius quote above means? What is the soul which it's talking about?

We can identify patterns that remain stable for a bit, so you might say that my soul is whatever essential features or patterns remain unchanged, but on the long span I find it hard to imagine such features. After all I will be eaten by worms or incinerated sooner or later.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#137

Post by frubar »

lisper wrote: post #130
frubar wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What if you were mugged? In general, any time you point to others and say " they did this to me" you remove your own power to change the situation. You may have to be creative, but personally I never want to give others that power. > but I don't think you can (or should) take responsibility for what you feel because you don't have control over that. I disagree with this. I consider the mind a muscle like any other.…

> I never want to give others that power. Of course you don't. But sometimes the laws of physics leave you no choice, in which case accepting that fact can save you a lot of heartache and frustration. > I consider the mind a muscle like any other. It can be trained and taught more productive ways of thinking [1]. Of course it can. And I submit that one of those "more productive ways of thinking" is to understand the…

>But sometimes the laws of physics leave you no choice, in which case accepting that fact can save you a lot of heartache and frustration.

Different views of the world, I guess. If the laws of physics "leave me no choice" I'm personally going to still consider that my responsibility and look for ways to prevent that situation in future, if possible. Sometimes there really is nothing you could have done (e.g. fired by a scumbag boss who didn't reveal their nature until it was too late to do anything about it) but there is nearly always something you can do to respond.

>And why should I ignore that? It seems like a pretty salient fact in the context of this conversation.

I was half joking with the comment, but the non-joking part was more to say that just because this guy wasn't able to take his own advice and contain his "horrible master" doesn't mean everything he said is invalid. It's still something to strive for.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#138

Post by dnh44 »

vanderreeah wrote: post #115
dnh44 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course everyone is allowed to feel shame or self-censor. I don't think the OP was suggesting it shouldn't be allowed. Personally I don't think that is a particularly good way to live though. The mind is our only refuge from the rest of society, and to attempt to censor your mind so it's more acceptable to society seems like a really sick thing to me. To me it doesn't seem that OP is arguing against self-regulation…

Which is precisely why I added loads of caveats - "sometimes (not always)", "a sector of society one respects (whoever that may be)", "(depending on what they are)". I haven't seen anyone in this discussion suggest that one should conform to (in your words) "society at large". That's just a straw-man.

This isn't a debate and my comment wasn't adversarial to yours so I'm struggling to understand how you think I've set up a straw-man to attack your argument. I agreed with your rhetorical question in my first sentence then went on to give an additional opinion.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#139

Post by vanderreeah »

dnh44 wrote: post #138
vanderreeah wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is precisely why I added loads of caveats - "sometimes (not always)", "a sector of society one respects (whoever that may be)", "(depending on what they are)". I haven't seen anyone in this discussion suggest that one should conform to (in your words) "society at large". That's just a straw-man.

This isn't a debate and my comment wasn't adversarial to yours so I'm struggling to understand how you think I've set up a straw-man to attack your argument. I agreed with your rhetorical question in my first sentence then went on to give an additional opinion.

Sorry, perhaps I misread your comment. I thought your second paragraph was disagreeing with my assertion that self-censoring is sometimes a valuable act.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#140

Post by lisper »

frubar wrote: post #137
lisper wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never want to give others that power. Of course you don't. But sometimes the laws of physics leave you no choice, in which case accepting that fact can save you a lot of heartache and frustration. > I consider the mind a muscle like any other. It can be trained and taught more productive ways of thinking [1]. Of course it can. And I submit that one of those "more productive ways of thinking" is to understand the…

>But sometimes the laws of physics leave you no choice, in which case accepting that fact can save you a lot of heartache and frustration. Different views of the world, I guess. If the laws of physics "leave me no choice" I'm personally going to still consider that my responsibility and look for ways to prevent that situation in future, if possible. Sometimes there really is nothing you could have done (e.g. fired by…

> I'm personally going to still consider that my responsibility and look for ways to prevent that situation in future, if possible.

I hope nothing I said gave you the impression that I would in any way disagree with that.

> It's still something to strive for.

Of course. All I'm saying is that you should not despair if you don't always achieve it.

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