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A note on programmer salaries

stephaniehurlburt.com

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Re: A note on programmer salaries

#131

Post by pm215 »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #119

I am continually surprised that _anyone_ in tech signs employment contracts in Europe. If you're good, and know how to work well remotely, contract work at 130-150€/hr is plentiful. Working 32 (billable) hrs/wk with 6 weeks vacation - more or less what you'd do as an Employee - that's an income between 190-220k. But every employment contract I've heard of here (France and Germany) maxes out at 90-100k for even direct…

I have an employment contract (in the UK, still just about part of Europe) because I like stability, and building up expertise in one thing rather than chopping and changing every year or two, and because the set of companies doing the kind of work I like doing isn't really that large. Raw salary isn't everything...

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#133

Post by vostok »

bronz wrote: post #100

i think programmers and a lot of other people get paid way too much. i used to wash dishes and the other guy who washed dishes, who worked right next to me, was an immigrant. he worked 12 hours a day every single solitary day. without him, the restaurant would grind to a halt. so, like stephanie, he was a huge part of all the money that was made. and yet, he gets paid less than minimum wage. he works harder than anyo…

I don't think you're actually arguing that programmers get paid too much.

You are arguing that dishwashers get paid too little. Your argument is that dishwashers produce a lot of value and you're right about that. The restaurant is willing to pay probably as much as $50/hour for a dishwasher if not more. The problem is that people are willing to take the job at $15/hour so there's no incentive for the restaurant to pay more.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#134

Post by chuckit2 »

seedle12 wrote: post #70

I'm an Android dev w/ Angular 2 and web app dev skills in . the UK.. I'm not even remotely scratching the surface of what engineers are being paid in the US. I'm making the transition to contracting.. working 12 - 14 hours permanently for peanuts is ridiculous.

(Throw-away account)

I have similar skills working in London for a "major search engine" (you've used it within the past 90 seconds I bet) - I guess I am one level below being considered "senior".

£65K basic, about £15-20K annual bonus and roughly $40K in stock grants a year, so works out at about £100K a year when all is said and done (or about $130K) before taxes.

Not sure how that compares to your pay, but I know that mine is lower than the people on my team doing the same job but based in SF or NYC - not by a huge amount, but certainly in the tens-of-thousands.

I know deep down in my heart that I should go contracting to double my pay and get a much more flexible work-life balance, but I just cant yet bring myself to quit mainly out of pride and because I expect when it comes to contractor interviews people will just not understand why I quit "major search engine" (plus I'd be throwing away about a hundred grand in stock that hasn't vested yet).

Golden handcuffs - first world problems suck.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#135

Post by zerr »

kayoone wrote: post #126
Swinx43 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of interest which European tech hub did you move to? Berlin? I am currently looking at making a move and would love to hear some first hand experience of the tech hubs in Europe that people have moved to.

Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes, health insurance etc. I could save more by getting a private health insurance, but that has its downsides too. The main reason why this works is that Berlin is still really cheap compared to London but even compared to Hamburg or Munich. Rents are getting up though, sti…

The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin.

Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage) a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. And the food, goods, appliances, etc... is similar, or cheaper. And most importantly - people speak English! :) The language factor was a revelation for me, after spending some time on the mainland Europe.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#136

Post by bronz »

vostok wrote: post #133
bronz wrote: post #100

i think programmers and a lot of other people get paid way too much. i used to wash dishes and the other guy who washed dishes, who worked right next to me, was an immigrant. he worked 12 hours a day every single solitary day. without him, the restaurant would grind to a halt. so, like stephanie, he was a huge part of all the money that was made. and yet, he gets paid less than minimum wage. he works harder than anyo…

I don't think you're actually arguing that programmers get paid too much. You are arguing that dishwashers get paid too little. Your argument is that dishwashers produce a lot of value and you're right about that. The restaurant is willing to pay probably as much as $50/hour for a dishwasher if not more. The problem is that people are willing to take the job at $15/hour so there's no incentive for the restaurant to p…

perhaps youre right

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#137

Post by Swinx43 »

raverbashing wrote: post #122
Swinx43 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is exactly why I am asking. When I investigated Berlin I was rather surprised by how low the wages are.

But then again you can (theoretically) rent something good for less money, healthcare is "free" (your employers has to pay insurance), transport system is great And it was ok-ish safe (in 2013, not sure about now)

Healthcare is definitely not "free" in Germany. In fact it is quite high compared to the UK. If you are a freelancer in Germany you will have a relatively large upfront cost compared to say freelancing in the UK.

Bring on top of that the Germany tax rates and you will quickly be taking less home than in say the UK.

Rents are also not as low as it previously was. It has steadily been rising and buying a place is also out of the question now given how the property market has performed in Berlin.

Don't get me wrong, I love Germany and have personal connections to it but one needs to take everything into account when you make a move to a new city.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#138

Post by Swinx43 »

zerr wrote: post #135
kayoone wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Berlin, i make close to 70k which is decent here for senior devs without management responsibility i guess and that amounts to ~3300 after taxes, health insurance etc. I could save more by getting a private health insurance, but that has its downsides too. The main reason why this works is that Berlin is still really cheap compared to London but even compared to Hamburg or Munich. Rents are getting up though, sti…

The bad thing in Berlin is that 60-70K is really a ceiling, if you want to stay in non-managerial engineering, and that amount is not something unrealistic for engineers living in cheaper parts of the world working remotely, so there is not much incentive to move to Berlin. Btw, why do you find London much expensive? I mean, you can rent (or mortgage) a decent apartment in the nice district for ~600 GBP per month. An…

Just out of interest where do you find a decent apartment in London to rent for £600 or to buy at a mortgage repayment that low?

From my experience that is definitely not possible.

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#139

Post by anotheryou »

1throwaway123 wrote: post #54

Salary progression for me First job (India) 2006 - ~$4,000 per year Second Job (India) 2008 - ~$10,000 per year Third job (US) 2010 - $105k Fourth Job (US) 2012 - >$150K Things have gone well since then too. The main thing that has kept things going up so far is really practicing before interviews to try and get better and never shying from looking for better opportunities. The company and I have a transactional rela…

how long did you stay at each job?

Re: A note on programmer salaries

#140

Post by raverbashing »

Swinx43 wrote: post #137
raverbashing wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then again you can (theoretically) rent something good for less money, healthcare is "free" (your employers has to pay insurance), transport system is great And it was ok-ish safe (in 2013, not sure about now)

Healthcare is definitely not "free" in Germany. In fact it is quite high compared to the UK. If you are a freelancer in Germany you will have a relatively large upfront cost compared to say freelancing in the UK. Bring on top of that the Germany tax rates and you will quickly be taking less home than in say the UK. Rents are also not as low as it previously was. It has steadily been rising and buying a place is also…

Yes, you have to pay more than in the UK and possibly France.

But for most people, those that are relocating for a job, healthcare doesn't cost much.

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