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To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

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Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#131

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

eksemplar wrote: post #125
blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

No, you can't. Elections as completely unlike any other scenario that you might be trying to secure. Two-factor auth is of no use for elections.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#132

Post by 3pt14159 »

eksemplar wrote: post #125
blackkettle wrote: post #115

No. To protect voting, don't use software. Everyone needs to be able to _understand_ as well as be able to verify that they successfully voted. Besides the issues with what software the machine is actually running, most people cannot comprehend or understand that software - even if it is open source. That is not acceptable for an open democratic society, or to sustaining it. In this particular situation it should not…

I think you could do some secure voting software if all your citizens had a secure two factor signature and you used block chain. I'm not sure why you would do it in a non-corrupt country though.

And how do you prove that all of those citizens exist?

We have a secure, provable, relatively cheap method right now: Paper ballots and public observers at elections. Compared to the stakes the cost is peanuts.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#134

Post by wu-ikkyu »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #108
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a system have to be 100% free of security concerns to "work"?

No, but it has to be free of devastating vulnerabilities.

The electronically run global financial system is not free of devastating vulnerabilities, and yet it "works"

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#135

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #134
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but it has to be free of devastating vulnerabilities.

The electronically run global financial system is not free of devastating vulnerabilities, and yet it "works"

So, what is your point? The financial system is actually going to collapse, and that's not a problem? Or the vulnerabilities aren't actually devastating, just bad? Or what?

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#136

Post by scierama »

"The blockchain is an undeniably ingenious invention – the brainchild of a person or group of people known by the pseudonym, Satoshi Nakamoto."

It isn't even definitively known who invented blockchain, it is behind the pyramid scheme known as bitcoin and no, no way should that ever be used in voting system computers.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#137

Post by beat »

First and foremost, use paper ballots. Before anything else. The paper ballots are the System of Record. If ever in doubt about downstream results, paper ballots can be hand-counted. (Additionally, use paper voter rolls. Mark registered voters when they vote, and track any same-day registrations on paper. The exact number of ballots cast can be extracted from the voter rolls.)

Second, never allow paper ballots to be handled by just one person, or by only members of one party - whether blank or used. Require that members of at least two political parties be present any time the ballots are physically touched.

Third, if using machines to read the ballots (ScanTron, etc), conduct spot counts of random machines, to make sure the machine results match the paper ballots. Conduct spot counts of entire polling stations randomly to make sure result totals match voter roll totals. Although this isn't 100% certain, it doesn't take a lot of spot checks to detect any sort of large-scale fraud effort.

Do these things, and it's exceedingly difficult to do statistically meaningful vote fraud, because we have a high degree of trust in the paper ballots and their surrounding process. From there, you can use automatic ballot reading and tallying to get fast results - the vote counting/tallying automation is derived data, not the System of Record.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#138

Post by wu-ikkyu »

maxerickson wrote: post #112
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #80

Why is it that electronic voting is so vehemently opposed here on HN and by many technologists in general when virtually every other existentially vital system they rely on is run electronically?

The cost of disruption is extremely high for voting, for pretty much everyone. For other systems, a disruption is just inconvenient for most people. Like if I can't use my credit card for a day, I don't care (of course this may be of more consequence for some people). Same thing with a power outage (and people that need it can have a backup for grid power; how do you have a backup for legitimate governance?).

>For other systems, a disruption is just inconvenient for most people. Like if I can't use my credit card for a day, I don't care

Would there not be far more immediate and direct inconvenience if no one could use their credit cards for a day, than if they couldn't vote for a day? (Assuming the following day both systems were back up and running) What is so inconvenient about have to wait an extra day to cast a vote on who your senator will be for the coming years versus being able to buy food or medicine?

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#139

Post by emilecantin »

yoz-y wrote: post #49
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, whether it is actually possible with an electronic system or not: It is really important that the (below) average voter actually understands that it is impossible for anyone to figure out who they voted for.

I wonder about biometrics though. How expensive would it be to connect the national fingerprint database with a ballot scanner of some sort?

Paper ballots are handled by multiple people, not just the voter. Even if you manage to filter out all the volunteers, getting access to the actual ballots might prove difficult, as they're handled quite publicly.

Re: To Protect Voting, Use Open-Source Software

#140

Post by maxerickson »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #138
maxerickson wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of disruption is extremely high for voting, for pretty much everyone. For other systems, a disruption is just inconvenient for most people. Like if I can't use my credit card for a day, I don't care (of course this may be of more consequence for some people). Same thing with a power outage (and people that need it can have a backup for grid power; how do you have a backup for legitimate governance?).

>For other systems, a disruption is just inconvenient for most people. Like if I can't use my credit card for a day, I don't care Would there not be far more immediate and direct inconvenience if no one could use their credit cards for a day, than if they couldn't vote for a day? (Assuming the following day both systems were back up and running) What is so inconvenient about have to wait an extra day to cast a vote o…

A disruption in voting brings the results into question.

So it isn't just a matter of voting the next day, it's a matter of determining whether you have to redo the entire election, and whether you have to do that with different procedures or equipment and whether other jurisdictions have to redo their elections and whether past election are legitimate and on and on.

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