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Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

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Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#131

Post by weberc2 »

syshum wrote: post #86
weberc2 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused about the comparison between cost per job and cost per job year. Presumably this (the Wisconsin deal) would be the better deal as the jobs presumably last more than one year?

Doubtful alot of the Recovery Act was for One Time Construction projects, like paving a road. There were also alot of one off projects like sending people out to help with Energy Efficiency in homes. There was not alot of long term stable jobs in there.

Your first sentence suggests that you disagreed with my previous post, but your rationale very much supports my point. Spending 125-250K on a job that only exists for a year is markedly worse than paying a comparable amount for a job that lasts many years.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#132

Post by twakefield »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #21
kingnothing wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$1,000,000 per job seems like a staggering subsidy.

Seems like it'd be cheaper to just give it away as UBI, no? Especially considering a million dollars for a transient job versus paying someone a million dollars over their lifetime. This whole late stage capitalism transition is going to be painful.

Setting the specific numbers aside, I think providing subsidized jobs is generally a better idea than UBI.

American society places a lot of value on having a job, so it is important for people to have one to help maintain self worth.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#133

Post by toomuchtodo »

twakefield wrote: post #132
toomuchtodo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it'd be cheaper to just give it away as UBI, no? Especially considering a million dollars for a transient job versus paying someone a million dollars over their lifetime. This whole late stage capitalism transition is going to be painful.

Setting the specific numbers aside, I think providing subsidized jobs is generally a better idea than UBI. American society places a lot of value on having a job, so it is important for people to have one to help maintain self worth.

I both respectfully and vigorously disagree. It's time we break down this sham that you require a job to have self worth.

If you automate yourself of a job, are you worthless now? Of course not! But we're still stuck with these silly societal moores that work and a job equate to value. No longer!

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#134

Post by singlow »

int_19h wrote: post #126
malchow wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Late stage" is, as you say, Marxist terminology that presumes a known end state. You are right to ridicule it, though downvoted you shall be.

I don't see how talking of a late stage of capitalism presumes a known end state. It only requires the assumption that 1) capitalism is not going to be around forever, and 2) we're closer to the point where it's going to be replaced by something else, than we are to the point where it replaced the socioeconomic system that preceded it. You don't have to believe that the following system is necessarily socialism or co…

You don't just need to believe you are past the midpoint: you must believe that you have crossed a threshold where current events and circumstances are precipitating or portending the end. While logically, this could be the belief of anyone who expects any non-capitalist system to be around the corner, it is in fact used primarily by Marxists/socialists/communists. Do you have examples of other groups using the term late-stage capitalism?

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#135

Post by twakefield »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #133
twakefield wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting the specific numbers aside, I think providing subsidized jobs is generally a better idea than UBI. American society places a lot of value on having a job, so it is important for people to have one to help maintain self worth.

I both respectfully and vigorously disagree. It's time we break down this sham that you require a job to have self worth. If you automate yourself of a job, are you worthless now? Of course not! But we're still stuck with these silly societal moores that work and a job equate to value. No longer!

I don't disagree with you but I think we need to be cognizant of the best way to transition away from the current value system.

I worry a step change will fail badly.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#136

Post by yorwba »

chillwaves wrote: post #105
Banthum wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marxists think they have a total understanding of society and economy. They don't see the future as uncertain, but rather as a series of inevitable steps that proceed towards a global communist state of society where human nature no longer applies and people are no longer self-interested. So they've got this weird verbal tic where they discuss present events as though they're historical events. After all, when you kn…

Why is Marxism a failure to understand the current and future state of economics (and the impacts of technology) but capitalism is immune to this somehow? I don't see any substance to your post. My response would be that it is easy to see the weakness of the current system, to identify the pressure points and where it will fail, collapse. It is not as easy to see where we are going. Because one is not good at the lat…

In my opinion Banthum has given an accurate description of certain branches of literalist Marxism. The theory has a descriptive part and a predictive/prescriptive part. The descriptive part is about human economic development through various phases up to Industrialization and is fairly accurate with respect to the societies Marx was studying. The predictive part is extrapolating this by adding further stages of Socialism and eventual Communism.

Precisely because Marxism makes predictions, it can fail to understand the current and future state of economics, while capitalism is just an economic system that exists and doesn't have to understand anything (just as Communism would be).

> it is easy to see the weakness of the current system, to identify the pressure points and where it will fail, collapse.

I don't think it is actually that simple. Marx saw the working conditions of coal miners in Germany as a weakness that would lead to an uprising. That revolution never happened and their working conditions improved within the system (unions likely played a part). I'm actually not aware of any Marxist revolution in an already industrialized country. (The Soviet Union and Mao's China famously miscalculated their industrialization plans.)

Today we might identify Automation as the weakness that will lead to a Socialist restructuring of society, with shared ownership of the means of production and all that. But it might all come differently and we could end up in a completely stratified society, without replacing Capitalism.

> Because one is not good at the latter does not mean the critique of the former is illegitimate.

I don't think Banthum was trying to insinuate that, but talking about something that's still happening as "late stage" is a bit presumptuous about your ability to tell the future.

> Are you suggesting that perhaps things have not significantly changed in regards to technology and the economy since the 19th century?

The complete opposite, I would think. Since the various problems plaguing the Capitalist system at the time didn't lead to its downfall and have mostly disappeared, any similar claim needs some very good arguments to explain why it will be different this time.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#137

Post by yladiz »

giarc wrote: post #101
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #10

I find it hard to believe that they won't automate it to the max. They've started to do it in china, why wouldn't they do it here where labor is more expensive and the factory is brand new. Foxconn has been manufacturing for a long time and they are looking to reduce costs not increase them by building in the US. Automation is the best way. I bet the jobs are not long term. Some jobs are better than none but don't pa…

I watched a doc on the Foxconn factory that made iPhones (and other phones) and I was surprised at the amount of manual labour that went into manufacturing them.

I think it's a case of creating something like a phone requires a lot of intricate internal wiring that robots simply can't do right now. Robots struggle with variable pressure, to pick up delicate objects, and a phone would be much trickier to do. There seem to be advances in the latter, and I think Amazon is really trying to get it to work for their warehouses, and I do hope that there are advances on this front due to the terrible chemicals used in electronics manufacturing that cause cancer, infertility, and other ailments, but it will likely be a while until the technology advances enough.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#138

Post by WheelsAtLarge »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #51
krapp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meaning the automation starts as soon as Trump leaves.

Automated new factories here in the homeland is still better for us than empty factories.

Maybe, they get very large tax breaks plus the take up resources. It's probably a breakeven situation.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#139

Post by krrrh »

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #47
krrrh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is essentially no difference between giving a company money and not collecting money from them that they would otherwise pay. Economists call these sorts of things tax expenditures . It amounts to taking money from some people and companies who pay their full tax bill, and giving it to others who don't.

There's an enormous difference. They wouldn't otherwise pay it because their factory and jobs wouldn't otherwise exist.

You're discounting the other uses that money could have had if it wasn't taken from taxpayers and given to the favoured company. How many small businesses were pushed over the margin by the taxes that were necessary to raise enough money to give benefits to a foreign corporation? How many companies had to lay off a few employees?

Governments don't have a great track record of picking winners, and companies that are capable of stealing headlines don't necessarily have a bigger or better impact than thousands of unknown businesses.

Re: Foxconn to Build $10B Factory in U.S

#140

Post by usrusr »

singlow wrote: post #134
int_19h wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how talking of a late stage of capitalism presumes a known end state. It only requires the assumption that 1) capitalism is not going to be around forever, and 2) we're closer to the point where it's going to be replaced by something else, than we are to the point where it replaced the socioeconomic system that preceded it. You don't have to believe that the following system is necessarily socialism or co…

You don't just need to believe you are past the midpoint: you must believe that you have crossed a threshold where current events and circumstances are precipitating or portending the end. While logically, this could be the belief of anyone who expects any non-capitalist system to be around the corner, it is in fact used primarily by Marxists/socialists/communists. Do you have examples of other groups using the term…

> Do you have examples of other groups using the term late-stage capitalism?

Those who don't share marxists' inherent optimism and therefore expect capitalism to eventually turn into neo-feudalism.

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