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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#131

Post by tluyben2 »

roel_v wrote: post #123
tluyben2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised about this as well: here (EU) people I know have no issues with this at all. Friends are both male and female, for my wife and me, and we meet, alone, with them often. Colleagues as well; I often have lunch/dinner/car rides alone with my colleagues of the opposite sex and never thought about this. They are colleagues and we are there to do a job. I have never, only for highschool teachers, heard anythi…

Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfu…

You are right, cannot generalize. But as it's not a common subject in NL (we usually hear about things that actually happened like the Judo thing); I would find it horrible to have to be careful with everything I do because people might feel 'uncomfortable' (like you I do not like this word; I think uncomfortable is an indigestion type of thing). But this is not at all to belittle people who are generally threatened as yes, that happens, but 'we' (in NL) (and in UK I see it as well) do not have that feeling generally and that's better than this 'let's not go for a drink because I might end up fired'. It widens the gender gap considerably as well as you cannot treat others like equals. You would have that drink with a male colleague, alone etc.

I went (as a white guy) to a mostly muslim highschool in Utrecht (Kanaleneiland in the 80s) and besides guns, knives and streets fights, this feeling wasn't there either. But real (in the much more than uncomfortable range) things ofcourse happened, it just didn't leave this kind paranoia behind. If paranoia at all.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#132

Post by 3131s »

mc32 wrote: post #69
throwawayable wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when there is no evidence one way or the other, you're saying you'd believe the accuser. This pretty much supports the grandparent's statement. I know of a woman who has made a successful career of extorting "settlements with mutual confidentiality agreements" out of a succession of positions as a PA to multiple high level executives, with each exec settling for tens of thousands to avoid this person leveling dama…

I don' think you understood what I said. My point is that a woman (or man) will not come out of a 1:1 or a drive home or talks over dinner and take an ambiguous statement or thing they thought they saw or heard and run to HR. People are rather loath to make the wrong conclusion and will give other the benefit of the doubt. Now, bad, vindictive, extortionists, etc., will not need you to take them out for drinks or hav…

> Now, bad, vindictive, extortionists, etc., will not need you to take them out for drinks or have a 1:1 to get their way.

This is the key. It is so foreign to me the idea that I would be afraid to be alone in a room with a woman. In the rare case that someone is actually that crazy and malicious, they will fabricate a private meeting entirely if need be, and as was said before, the accusation can be enough to damage a career. How is it even possible to avoid brief periods of private communication with the opposite sex all day every day?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#133

Post by throwaway688 »

cbanek wrote: post #56
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about trust. It's just business and mutual protection. I'm not sure which way to feel on the issue, but it's hard to deny that the recently reported harassment happened while both the victim and the abuser were alone together, or shared a private channel of communication. If you eliminate this aspect, you might eliminate the harassment along with it. That seems like a positive outcome. In practice, th…

If you're worried about mutual protection, it would seem that you don't trust the person. You also seem to imply that harassment is more about having opportunities to harass, rather than a person wanting to commit harassment and waiting for the right opportunity. If someone wants to do something, I figure they could be very patient in waiting for their time. Also, how would you know until everyone is already uncomfor…

Your conclusion sounds completely absurd, but I agree with you. In fact, even walking around in groups of 3 is dangerous if you keep talking because what you said might be interpreted as offensive and all 3 people would hear it.

I guess I don't understand what you would propose as a solution...

Current situation is obviously not working.

Right now the following is happening:

1) Ladies get harassed by those with more power because it's a way to get dates. They could potentially lose their job/opportunity if they disagree to go on a date. This leads to 2.

2) Men get false accusations because women do not currently have to provide proof for low rank employee harassment cases.

3) Culture is changing in such a way that more and more things are considered offensive to say.

4) People are choosing to have fewer 1-on-1 (or at all) interactions with coworkers because of these issues. It's unfair to discriminate against just some coworkers because you might suspect they will be trouble. As a result, you might be forced to not have 1-on-1s. Might be forced to give up all non-strictly-work-related conversations with everyone at work.

At my current work, all of us are now walking as a group to lunch in silence. It is extremely awkward but it seems like this is the only possible outcome of such a system.

I guess my own current solution is to leave US/Bay Area for basically any other country. I rather not deal with these dangers since I want to have friends at work and any non-work related conversation might be considered offensive by someone in a group of 20 or so people.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#135

Post by SCdF »

learc83 wrote: post #129
SCdF wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't drink without getting drunk? (To answer your main question though: I'm OK with it, maybe that's just me though. I know we are a small nation but I don't know everyone .) Edit: Since we're on the subject, I just spent a week living in an AirBNB apartment with a female work colleague (work meetup in a different city). Just us two. Before this thread I didn't even think that was weird. Americans: is that weird…

Bad phrasing. Do you think the average New Zealander is ok with their spouse going out for drinks alone with someone of the opposite sex? I'm pretty sure that most Americans wouldn't like that, and I think jealousy and insecurity are pretty common among humans of all countries. About the AirBNB thing--it's pretty context dependant. If you are both single and working for a small startup and you did it voluntarily, I t…

So I think they would be, but yeah, I can only really speak for myself. I have rolled back through my memory, and I have had drinks with women alone before, though not much, but probably as many times as I've had drinks with guys alone before.

I just asked my SO and she is OK with it, and thinks people here (we live in London now) would think similarly.

> I think jealousy and insecurity are pretty common among humans of all countries.

So right, this is interesting! To be clear: if my SO went out for drinks with a guy from work I probably would be jealous and insecure about it, at least a little bit. But that's my failing, not hers, and is for me to get over. It's not fair for me to stop her from chilling out with a friend just because said friend is a dude.

So maybe that's the main difference?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#136

Post by peoplewindow »

tluyben2 wrote: post #131
roel_v wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfu…

You are right, cannot generalize. But as it's not a common subject in NL (we usually hear about things that actually happened like the Judo thing); I would find it horrible to have to be careful with everything I do because people might feel 'uncomfortable' (like you I do not like this word; I think uncomfortable is an indigestion type of thing). But this is not at all to belittle people who are generally threatened…

It's very common in all western countries, there's nothing special about Europe, the Netherlands or the UK. Go talk to some male primary school teachers about their experiences - if you can find any.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#137

Post by dijit »

dang wrote: post #93
dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

> EDIT: downvotes? Really? Remind me never to air my concerns in public again. The HN guidelines explicitly ask you not to post downvote complaints, so please don't. It's tedious. A reasonable thing to do when you get downvoted is to reflect on why your comment might have merited that. If you don't want to do that work, fine; but please don't channel that unwillingness into off-topic commentary. https://news.ycombina…

Fair enough. But isn't brigading against the rules? All my comments on other articles are also being downvoted despite being inactive for a while.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#138

Post by beggat »

roel_v wrote: post #123
tluyben2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised about this as well: here (EU) people I know have no issues with this at all. Friends are both male and female, for my wife and me, and we meet, alone, with them often. Colleagues as well; I often have lunch/dinner/car rides alone with my colleagues of the opposite sex and never thought about this. They are colleagues and we are there to do a job. I have never, only for highschool teachers, heard anythi…

Probably in the group you hang around with, but you can't generalize that. There are definitely people in the Netherlands who will actively avoid situations where they are 1:1 with mixed genders, and not only in work settings. Since I have children, I meet much more people who are 'different' from my 'normal' crowd (which are successful university educated upper middle and upper class professionals) and I havr painfu…

>And this is not something against muslims either; I've had muslim women excuse themselves from me and I just thought 'oh well, when in Rome, do like the Romans'.

Isn't that what those muslim women should have been thinking? It is them who moved to a liberal society and are refusing to take part in it.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#139

Post by peoplewindow »

apexalpha wrote: post #114
aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

This comment could just as well be from another planet to me. I'm in my twenties now and have a GF. I still drive to work with another woman in a car, I have meetings 1 on 1 with my female manager. In my personal life I have girl friends that I am not dating with but that are part of my friends group and that I hang out with. Also in 1 on 1 settings. The fact that the 'risk' you talk about is even part of your daily…

It happens outside the USA too. I'm unconvinced America is so wildly different.

With utmost respect to your personal situation, about which I know only what you've said above, I would imagine you'll find it changes as you get older.

Dating in your mid-twenties is not the same as even in your mid-thirties. It's not that unexpected for young guys to have big friend groups that include single women, and for people to hang out fairly often and fluidly. As those groups settle down, go their own way and generally dwindle it gets harder to just "hang out" one-on-one with members of the opposite sex if you have a serious girlfriend. Jealousy and insecurity are considered normal and entirely acceptable by women, as are things like banning boyfriends from seeing former friends, rummaging through private messages (including business messages) to try and spot interactions with females, and generally treating any kind of interaction with females that they don't personally know about/condone as if it were actually cheating.

Mike Pence is an old married guy. His "never eat alone with a woman" rule may seem baffling to you now, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#140

Post by mercer »

xenadu02 wrote: post #77
Spivak wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even considering the case where the woman is being malicious; even in the case a misunderstanding her feelings could be completely valid. For example, she could take me buying her a drink as an advance when I'm really just getting the next round. Or I could be venting or speaking passionately about something and have it come off as scary; I'm a pretty big dude and I have a hearing problem so I talk too loud s…

Then just say that's what you're doing. Ask her if she feels uncomfortable and say you want to have a productive but professional working relationship.

I dislike the use of the word 'just' in these kinds of discussions. If it were 'just' a matter of doing x, we wouldn't be discussing it.

I can't think of any recent professional interaction with a woman (I'm a man) where the mere act of 'asking if she feels uncomfortable' or underlining how this is not a outside-of-work-type situation wouldn't be enough to make the whole thing uncomfortable.

It'd a milder form of saying 'I don't want to have sex with you, just to be clear.'

I'm sure there are situations where this can and should be said, and where this might be done in a non-awkward way, I'm just saying that in many cases it's not that simple. Being explicit can be creepy.

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