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Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#131

Post by gabrielgoh »

epistasis wrote: post #103
gabrielgoh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm saying that headline says too little. The authors of the paper strongly suggest that there is a causative effect in the paper, and I think its very reasonable this is reflected in the title of the headline. [edit] Even the title of the original paper is "Moderate alcohol consumption as risk factor for adverse brain outcomes and cognitive decline" which suggest causation. why should the headline be weaker than the…

In this setting, "risk factor" means "associated." It does not mean causes, and it really misinforms the public to jump to that. Even if the authors strongly suggest causation, but stop short, the most that should go in the headline is "Study strong suggests that moderate drinking causes.." Jumping to conclusions in the popular press hurts the reputation of scientists. Journalists and editors have been doing this for…

Fair point about the risk factor. I take the edit back!

But I think our disagreement is philosophical. Ultimately I feel much of medical research is prescriptive - and thus there is no misrepresentation, except perhaps amount of uncertainty that is associated with these studies.

I think hese uncertainties are poorly communicated by scientists themselves, and just appending "maybe" to every headline adds very little to the conversation.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#132

Post by soared »

Cyph0n wrote: post #84

I'm always interested to see how people react to a news article or study that criticizes alcohol. I have noticed over time that alcohol consumption is usually a taboo subject to discuss for some reason, and almost everyone I talk to immediately gets on the defensive when I say that I don't drink and never will. Can anyone shed some light on why exactly people don't like it when someone doesn't drink, especially when…

"and never will" is a fairly aggressive claim and implies alcohol is super bad. Just saying I don't drink is way less aggressive.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#133

Post by sjg007 »

resu_nimda wrote: post #63
startupdiscuss wrote: post #4

But they define "moderate" as 2 drinks/day for a man. That is 14 drinks a week which puts you in the second highest decile for Americans! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think...

The study linked in the article says "Information was collected in face-to-face computer-assisted interviews conducted in the participants’ homes." [1] It seems like this is a study where people might be likely to lie about their consumption, or even earnestly estimate it incorrectly. Is there any way to control for that? The distribution feels too extreme, like a significant number of people underestimated and overe…

Multiply by 1.5 or 2 usually. Much like software estimates.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#134

Post by BenchRouter »

Cyph0n wrote: post #84

I'm always interested to see how people react to a news article or study that criticizes alcohol. I have noticed over time that alcohol consumption is usually a taboo subject to discuss for some reason, and almost everyone I talk to immediately gets on the defensive when I say that I don't drink and never will. Can anyone shed some light on why exactly people don't like it when someone doesn't drink, especially when…

> Anyways, I'm not surprised that most of the comments here are either outright defensive or are just proposing ways to undermine the content of the study

To be fair, alcohol is one of those topics where research is frequently contradictory: Studies sometimes show moderate consumption is healthy (or has no effect on mortality rate, at least), and others show no amount of consumption is healthy. Even meta-studies frequently contradict each other.

Given that, I think it's fair for people to be extremely skeptical of studies involving alcohol (and coffee, our other favorite drug that no one's quite clear on).

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#135

Post by lr4444lr »

Theodores wrote: post #125
codyb wrote: post #41

Alcohol is getting a pretty bad rap to me the more I read about it. After reading this I was curious about ways to _increase_ hippocampal function. According to [0] it seems like exercise can increase hippocampal function. Another link I can't find again since I found it on my phone and am now on my laptop indicated things like learning languages, and an omega 3 rich diet can also help. This is good news for me since…

Here is some more reading to further persuade you - SECRET FSB LECTURE: Why Putin doesn't drink alcohol [0]. This clip has Putin back in 1999, Chechen War, raising a glass with the troops to then put the glass down and command his men to get back to work, deferring the drinking until the job is done. The supposed 'secret FSB lecture' explains how alcohol strips the outer 'oily' layer from blood vessels causing things…

What need for alcohol when he's constantly drunk on power? ;-)

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#136

Post by grandalf »

opportune wrote: post #73
grandalf wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Study finds correlation. Article mentions caveat that correlation is not causation. Headline explicitly states causation. Welcome to the Washington Post. In cases like this it's fairly obvious but across the board there is such a low standard for journalism that I can't bring myself to pay the $1 to subscribe. When Bezos bought it I had hoped we'd see a new era of high quality American journalism, but the opposite…

WaPo is 50% Trump and 50% a moderately better version of buzzfeed.

Agreed. It's truly amazing that one of the world's richest men would buy one of America's great papers and allow it to abandon basic journalistic standards. In a sense this amounts to an act of sabotage.

At first, I thought it was meant to be an insurance policy against politicians turning against Amazon, but now I have doubts about whether Bezos wishes the paper to do actual journalism.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#137

Post by whiddershins »

haswell wrote: post #32
jogjayr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says a 12 oz beer (slightly larger than the standard 330ml beer) is 1 drink for the purposes of the study.

I couldn't get beyond the paywall, but did they mention which sort of beer? Standard Bud/Miller products? Using a 12 oz beer as a starting point doesn't mean much in a craft beer world with most "good" beers ranging from 5-8% ABV. Edit: not really understanding the downvotes? Alcohol content is extremely important in understanding the meaning of a "drink". Not trying to be pedantic, but now more than ever, "a beer" i…

One of my big drinking epiphanies is a US pint of Brooklyn Defender or Ithaca Flower Power IPA is approximately 2 standard drinks.

4 beers in this scenario equals half a fifth of normal 80 proof whiskey like Jack Daniels.

A "couple of beers and a shot" becomes equal to an entire bottle of wine.

Two beers with a long pour (friendly bartender) of tequila or Jameson on the rocks is again, nearly half a bottle of whiskey.

Etc. IPAs are deceptive when you're just trying to "have a couple of beers at the pub down the street after work."

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#138

Post by sjg007 »

prodmerc wrote: post #46
haswell wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't get beyond the paywall, but did they mention which sort of beer? Standard Bud/Miller products? Using a 12 oz beer as a starting point doesn't mean much in a craft beer world with most "good" beers ranging from 5-8% ABV. Edit: not really understanding the downvotes? Alcohol content is extremely important in understanding the meaning of a "drink". Not trying to be pedantic, but now more than ever, "a beer" i…

Every time I ask what defines a "drink" in absolute terms of alcohol content I get downvoted too.

It's 8 grams or 10 mL of pure alcohol. So you would need to calculate that based on percentage and volume for the specific drink. But you can reason using the "standard beer/wine/whiskey units" as a rule of thumb and round up by 1 or 2 total drinks over the course of say a few IPAs vs Budweisers. Same if you drink 100 proof vs 80. Or 15% zinfandel vs 12% merlot.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#139

Post by asciimo »

capkutay wrote: post #121
startupdiscuss wrote: post #4

But they define "moderate" as 2 drinks/day for a man. That is 14 drinks a week which puts you in the second highest decile for Americans! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think...

I would consider moderate drinking to be 4-5 drinks a week (drinking socially weekends). 2 drinks/night is practically getting drunk/tipsy every night. In what world is that moderate?

Congratulations, you are not an alcoholic!

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#140

Post by c0nducktr »

devoply wrote: post #77
buckbova wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you heard of culling the herd? Meaning, in this case, deliberately killing off weaker brain cells to make the brain as a whole work faster.

Is there any proof whatsoever of this? It assumes that the natural behavior of cells in the brain is dysfunctional. Herd culling is a normal part of ecology in that weaker animals become prey to predators. Humans add their own complexity to that natural order of the system. In the human body cells which are not performing their correct behavior kill themselves. Otherwise they can become cancers.

It's an old joke from the television show Cheers.

"Well you see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo and when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive drinking of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."

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