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As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

nytimes.com

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Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#131

Post by objclxt »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #27

Why do those students even need to cheat? Harvard has a 97% graduation rate and Stanford 93%.

I used to Head TA CS at Harvard (or "TF", to use their verbiage), so can answer this: the graduation rate is very high, but honors are capped (mainly because the honors rate was at one time out of control). Personally I never really cared for honors, but for many people it can be extremely important.

Because honors are capped at a fixed percentage of the class relative to GPA this means it's vital to maximize your grades, hence the cheating. No joke - I used to get many e-mails from students after grades were released begging for us to bump them up.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#132

Post by dasmoth »

glangdale wrote: post #47
glangdale wrote: post #23

This is hugely important as a lot of people see programming as a ticket into higher-end jobs and will spend as little time as individual contributors as they can. The idea that "oh, they'll get caught in the workforce" is not correct - quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management, technical marketing, etc. and never have their…

Here's the trajectory: Fake your way through basic CS courses. Find your way into group-work heavy projects in later years, possibly doing enough ancillary aspects of the work to be semi-useful. It will be likely that your other group members will find it easier to grin and bear it. Optionally: do a Masters or PhD. Plagiarize your work, or potentially hire someone to do it for you. Continue into the work force, focus…

I think employers have a degree of responsibility here. Ultimately, they're the ones who've taken projects that ought to be within the capabilities of single individual hackers and said "this needs a team of six and a project manager". Thus transforming the project from principally technical (or tech + requirements gathering) into one of those highly-political group work exercises.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#134

Post by stale2002 »

jmkni wrote: post #129
chrismcb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most of these people can't code fizzbuzz... Which is why it is so important to ask a question line that. Most of these people will also fail a whiteboard interview spectacularly.

The thing About FizBuzz is that, if you Google programmer interview questions , it's the first thing that shows up and takes about 2 minutes to wrap your head around. Somebody who can't do Fizzbuzz in an interview has literally done zero preparation for that interview.

But even then, you'd be surprised how many people don't even do that.....

Even so, I usually ask something that is barely more difficult, like traverse a tree, or reverse a sentence.

There is no point at all in asking the hardcore, Google interview questions, as a simple question tells you just as much, which is "do you have a pulse".

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#135

Post by kutkloon7 »

"Troves of code online, on sites like GitHub, may have answers to the very assignment the student is wrestling with, posted by someone who previously took the course."

If the assignments are not changed from year to year, the institution is partially to blame.

A good student, researcher or scientist is expected to do research. When you stumble upon the solution (either by accident or intentional) to your problem, it will become very hard to come up with a different solution. Your solution is very likely to be viewed as plagiarism. Of course, the student should cite the source of their inspiration, but since the instructor may reduce the grade when he learns that the student looked at someone else's solution, this is a devil's dilemma.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#136

Post by stale2002 »

xor1 wrote: post #98

Anecdote time: My friend is currently doing a Computer Science MS at a university that I'm sure most people on HN have heard of. She got accepted with an unrelated undergrad degree (though still STEM) and two Intro to Programming community college courses she took after graduating (which she cheated her way through by paying her roommate at the time to do all of her homework). She hits me up for help with her homewor…

Well, it depends.

People like this are why companies ask programming questions that are slightly harder than fizzbuzz.

You might be able to get a middling, junior dev position, using her method, but good luck doing anything else with your life.

I certainly slacked off a bunch during school, as I only minored in CS. I was able to get a job, but I've had to work really hard after that to improve my skills, and go beyond the junior dev role (along with having to job hop a bit more than I am comfortable with).

And I also don't have any specialized knowledge, so I don't feel like I can do anything more than web dev.

The thing is, there is much more to a career in tech, than just being a mid level engineer. And it is difficult to go beyond that unless you can really bring useful skills and value to the table.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#137

Post by stale2002 »

chrisper wrote: post #53
keerthiko wrote: post #20

What they call "cheating" is how I do my job as a developer of a 3-person (dev) software company. We make software. People like it and use it. We make money. Who cares whether the code came from our head or from something publicly available on the internet, or from someone willing to help us? As long as it wasn't an actual violation of the law. There's no good reason to create a separate set of laws for the classroom…

>As long as it wasn't an actual violation of the law But it is a violation of Academic Integrity, which is sort of a law you agreed to when signing up for a class. At least at my school it was like that.

He is saying that we should get rid of the law of Academic Integrity, and make classes more like the real world.

It is an interesting idea, the problem being that in the real world, while you can kinda look up the answer, it is rare to find someone who is doing the exact same thing as what you need to do, for thousands of lines of code.

Maybe college would better simulate the real world if you gave students personalized, large problems, that nobody has ever done before(instead of small, toy problems)?

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#138

Post by daveFNbuck »

internalfx wrote: post #133

Programming requires constant learning. If you need someone to teach you, it will be hard to keep up. If you can teach yourself, you don't need college. I Never went to a university. I have no degree. I have the best career I can imagine.

I tried to learn to code on my own growing up and failed, eventually losing interest. It wasn't until I had proper instruction in my intro-level college course that I was able to learn the basics. I haven't had trouble keeping up since then. I have three degrees. I have the best career I can imagine.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#139

Post by michaelt »

orthoganol wrote: post #88
glangdale wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the trajectory: Fake your way through basic CS courses. Find your way into group-work heavy projects in later years, possibly doing enough ancillary aspects of the work to be semi-useful. It will be likely that your other group members will find it easier to grin and bear it. Optionally: do a Masters or PhD. Plagiarize your work, or potentially hire someone to do it for you. Continue into the work force, focus…

> you can thank the cheaters and fakers, and the fact that our industry doesn't have the will to root them out. Isn't this in every industry? You don't apply for the job you are most qualified for, you shoot for the next level job, the job that pays better, looks better, but stretches your expertise.

  Isn't this in every industry?
Many professions have professional institutions which act as gatekeepers and audit the quality of university courses. For example, in the UK to become an architect you must become a member of the Royal Institute of British Architects, which requires a degree, a certain amount of postgraduate training, and a certain amount of experience working under an already-qualified architect.

Needless to say, this means you can't drop out of university to found an architecture startup! And these organisations often have the side effect of influencing wages (and industry reforms) due to their control on the supply of workers.

People on programmer forums don't seem to like the idea of this sort of thing much. Better for my ego to believe I'm a unique genius due to my own efforts and inherent superiority; than to believe I'm a replaceable cog stamped out by a university production line!

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#140

Post by stale2002 »

askvictor wrote: post #109

I teach at a (somewhat academic) high school, and we've noticed a massive shift in how students think about copying in the past few years - about half of our students think it's OK to share answers for an assessment where it will assist another student (i.e. classical notion of cheating). I'm very curious if this is a mind-shift in younger people that are just a lot happier to share things, and this is just a consequ…

Here is one big reason why "cheating" happens. It isnt directly related to the high school level, and more applicable to the college, though.

The problem is that different classes/subjects/majors have wildly different expectations with regards to how much you are allowed to collaborate with other students.

For example, in my business and economics classes I took, collaboration is encouraged by the professors so much that everyone just works together on everything, without even asking if it is cheating, because of course it isn't.

And people who take these classes then go on to take a class in a different subject, where you are not in a situation where literally every single assignment is a group project, and they forget to ask if what they are doing is allowed.

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