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DevOps is a culture, not a role

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Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#131
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say it's often hardly about just "operating" the machine. You need to know how the machine works how it can affect other machines and what can you do if parts of the machine break. So, in terms from programming analogy, you need how your runtime operates, how it can affect neighbour processes/services, and what can you do when the runtime breaks down. This still does not affect how you structure your code (…

> So, in terms from programming analogy, you need how your runtime operates, how it can affect neighbour processes/services, and what can you do when the runtime breaks down. This still does not affect how you structure your code (at least usually, when you don't work closely with the OS, which I bet is majority of code in the wild). Working with CFEngine's "DSL" v2 was very different from using Puppet mainly due to…

> Working with CFEngine's "DSL" v2 was very different from using Puppet mainly due to its limitations and lack of features. This really affects the way you structure your code.

In this case it only affected where you put which part of the code, not how you managed your servers with the tool.

Note that the analogy with programming languages is =~ , not =~ , what you're trying to put into use here. For judging the approach, it's irrelevant whether you write a shell script or use somebody's Ruby plugin to detect mounted filesystems or something like that. It doesn't change fundamentally how you structure maintenance of your environment.

> There were / are many nuances in CFEngine that make it different from puppet.

Of course, starting with their languages' syntax. Though both use the same underlying ideas, even if they call them differently, and both operate in similar way. If you know how one works, it's a knowledge that's easy to transfer to the other.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#132
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DevOps, is a developer, that do admin stuff, because the development environment became more complex with the introduction of virtualization , cloud technologies and big data Admins who do Dev work should be called OpsDev ... A DevOps, is a Developer , someone who started as a developer and now do extra admin and systems work Not the other way around ..

> the development environment became more complex with the introduction of virtualization , cloud technologies and big data Eh. Spinning up a new VM is wayyyyy easier than racking a new box. And deploying to an app-running service is generally way easier than managing a bare-metal/load-balancer/etc-interfacing deploy script. A devops engineer building and maintaining that infrastructure is a split that makes sense to…

honestly i am not really sure what you mean by "a split that makes sense to me", split between who?

the article of this thread/post have a very nice diagram at the top .. if the DevOps is focused more on the tasks on the right (ops) in my opinion he is not really a Devop

Builder are maintainers of the infrastructure are not DevOps .. they are just Admins

Developers of the software used to make this infrastructure possibles, are just Developers

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#133

First, let me say I totally agree with the premise here--that all parts of a software engineering organization need to be on board with DevOps, buying in to the vision, learning the full stack, taking responsibility. However, this article does serve as a good example of one of the big problems with most DevOps/SRE evangelism: It's usually coming from the Dev- perspective, rather than the -Ops perspective (or better,…

That's interesting because most of the content I've seen has been on the infra side of things (deploying AWS, config management, security, etc)

but, yes, you need both sides of the coin for the devops idea to happen

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data scientists would disagree. Specialization is alive and well.

I think think most skilled developers could easily do data science work, they are just more expensive to hire than data scientists.

Data science involves a lot of statistics and graduate level mathematics. I don't think skilled developers can fill the gap.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#136
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but your parent is saying that job is not some new "DevOps" thing, it is just well functioning operations. "DevOps" is meant to evoke bi-directional buy-in and cooperation between the people working on development and the people working on operations. Re-naming the operations role "DevOps" doesn't get you that - you could still have low buy-in and poor cooperation between development and "DevOps".

I agree, and I agreed with that previous comment and the one before it. But I don't see where the comment I replied to made any reference to the name not doing what it says. I only see him saying that what we call DevOps existed before we called it that. In any case, of course the name doesn't cause buy-in to happen, just like hiring an "Engineer" doesn't mean the person will do a good job engineering. You're not say…

I am saying that using the "DevOps" term for a role undermines the effectiveness of the term as a definition of culture. "I'm just a developer, I don't need to worry about this DevOps stuff, that's what we have the DevOps engineers for!"

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#137

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

> "automation is a side-effect of the shared empathy which DevOps fosters"

I'd upvote you twice if I could. That is a an excellent phrasing.

I've long felt there's nothing more indicative of a high-functioning devops culture than a viable continuous delivery pipeline, but making the pipelines the goal would be to miss the point entirely.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#138
post #28

I was thinkging about that Mike Dilworth quote: "DevOps is a culture, not a role! The whole company needs to be doing DevOps for it to work." It's one of those kinds of statements that at first glance, looks really insightful and invites the head nodding up & down in agreement. However, thinking about it some more, that type of quote can be applied to anything . "Compliance is a culture not a role. Everyone from the…

i am not sure compliance, security and marketing etc. are cultural. I am pretty sure they are well defined skills/disciplines. The reasons why i believe devops is a cultural thing is because its not just about the technology, it is also about the process of executing work. you can use the tools and automate the shit out of everything, but this isnt devops. but if, as a full stack autonomous team, you are experimenting your way towards a target condition, (think lean), to elevate constraints, then you are working in a devops way. You cant work like this unless the organisational processes support it. We can then throw in all the great modern tools, software engineering methodologies, shift left, involve everyone in the organisation and then it does become a cultural movement. There is still a place for specialisation, but good specialists know how to work in loosely coupled way yet, function in an interdependent world. So,to summarise. its about the people, processes and technology and these things combined make it cultural.

Re: DevOps is a culture, not a role

#139

"DevOps Engineer" is simply just title inflation. In 2017, there's literally _no_ difference between the outcomes expected from a "Systems Engineer" and a "DevOps Engineer" - both are expected to produce HA, Automated, Well Documented Infrastructure, to allow developers to run their code. Anyone not doing that is just a _bad_ "Systems Engineer" Developers don't call themselves "Agile Developers" because they started…

It is not the engineers that call themselves 'Devops'. It's the recruiters and managers. Every engineer that I know that holds the 'Devops' title hates it, but has no choice in it.

True, that! Recruiters, marketers, managers, PR people .. they all insist on having their own handle on 'their engineers' in some way or another..
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