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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#131

Post by exclusiv »

senorjazz wrote: post #93
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

A friend of mine gave her mother a lot of edibles that she made from marijuana she grew when she was suffering through cancer and in a lot of pain. Apparently she was happy until she passed. She had tried chemo at one point and had been miserable of course.

My grandma has arthritis and a lot of back pain and the doctor gave her morphine. I doubt anything is better than that but it does seem overly excessive, although stretches and tylenol as you suggest is definitely too weak for her.

I think there's a really nice place for marijuana as a pain medication.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#132

Post by mywittyname »

imroot wrote: post #77
SurrealSoul wrote: post #18

Cincinnati was my home town, and its bad. People joke about it but I know at least 3 people on my friendslist that overdosed. I'm glad the punishment for selling the drug is so high, often even sometimes receiving murder sentences for people that overdose but that isn't going to prevent people from buying / selling

One of my good friends was rear ended by someone on heroin this week. Cincinnati police didn't even bother stopping to do a police report. Less than 20 minutes later, he hit a parked car in St. Bernard and was arrested for DUI, Driving under suspension, and no insurance. The guy has a felony charge pending (and an arrest warrant out for him)...and CPD just drove off without even taking a second look. I don't want to…

CPD has been like this for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure if Cincinnati is a shit-hole because the police don't care, or the police don't care because the city is a shit-hole. I imagine it's a little bit of both.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#133

Post by vitaminbandit »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #29
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

> How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? It doesn't. It's partly an acknowledgement that, "It's really none of your business what people put in their own bodies." You're implicitly saying, "I don't like the fact that you are addicted to X substance or action Y, so I think that gives me the moral justification to lock you in a literal cage for a very long time." Legalizing drugs is about not putting people in j…

While I [would like to] agree that people have the right to put whatever they want into their own bodies, we cannot deny that there are negative societal externalities caused by individual addictions. Everything ranging from something as abstract as an increase in national healthcare spending to something as palpable as coming home to find that your house has been burglarized by addicts.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#134

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

mgce wrote: post #125
krapp wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Why outlaw marketing? If all drugs are legal and regulated, there should be no issue with advertising them like any other legal and regulated product. The US already allows advertising for pharmaceuticals, it should allow advertising for every other drug. And why should drug companies have to invest their profits in the programs you describe?…

I firmly believe alcohol marketing is a major contributor toward alcohol continuing to be one of the most destructive drugs in our society. It's glamorized in a a savvy and well-funded way that puts an incessant haze in our understanding of it as a a powerful, poisonous, and potentially debilitating substance. You can find billboards that make bottles of liquor look like royal treasure passed down from the gods. It's…

On one hand, who can forget this wonderful slice from South Park: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WrVLB3MtUjo

On the other, alcohol use is highly cultural. In Italy, everybody drinks. A glass of wine or two with lunch and dinner is totally normal. Yet I never have seen a sauced Italian.

Compare it to the Brits, who drink like fish. In fact, the ancient Romans repeatedly tried and failed to replace the local binge drinking culture with their own casual Mediterranean cafe culture.

The reason Americans drink too much is simply because American culture values getting sauced. Even responsible adults remember their adolescent years with some fondness and so there isn't much of a cultural impetus to stop drinking or to drink less.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#135

Post by FireBeyond »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #116
FireBeyond wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Btw, ever wonder how much fentanyl it takes to kill you vs the amount of heroin? https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fa... . That's what's driving the huge number of deaths from "heroin". Fentanyl is definitely a problem, but you can't point just to potency and say "this is why". Fentanyl is much more potent than most other painkillers, but it's also more expensive. 5 patches of 12 hour releas…

Mmmm, I'm not following your point. I'm saying "If you cut a big bag of heroin with an amount of fentanyl in the correct ratio to not kill you, and shake it all up, you can't be very certain that the correct ratios are being evenly distributed. Therefore, when you split it all up into much smaller quantities, the ratio of fentanyl to heroin will vary." That's creating a situation where you really don't know what you'…

Very true, the bonding and distribution can cause big problems.

What I'm saying is analogous to this:

Drug A requires 1kg to be lethal, and costs $100/kg. Drug B requires 100g to be lethal, but costs $5,000/kg.

It doesn't _automatically_ follow that you can say that Drug B is more likely to be a problem on the street, because mass/volume is not the _only_ factor in safety.

But, it certainly is one, yes.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#136

Post by Digory »

egwynn wrote: post #118
Digory wrote: post #62

Russ Roberts' Econtalk podcast had a stunningly good interview with Sam Quinones about the opioid epidemic. I am fairly libertarian on many things, but this is not a simple case of prohibition run amok. Heroin/opioid addiction is close to a loss of free will, aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. Really fascinating, sad, and difficult stuff. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sa…

I think it’s rather generous of you to call them “screw ups” from big pharma.

The interview goes into the history of pharma's search for a non-addictive opiate. I assume that started with decent motives, even if not altruistic. The research critically failed a lot of people. Among other things, says Quinones's, it "transformed football into a gateway to heroin addiction..."

The more recent big pharma position of "we never thought to ask why West Virginians are such good customers" deserves scorn, lawsuits, and prison time.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#137

Post by pixl97 »

mgce wrote: post #101
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

I want to agree with you, and I think I mostly do. Unfortunately your comment also reminds me how enormous the barriers remain toward people recognizing alcoholism and having the will to treat it. There's an enormous amount of shame, stigma, and denial toward alcoholism, to the point that most who suffer from it still choose to hide that reality as much as they possibly can. Even worse, the legality of it promotes a…

>I don't think making alcohol illegal would help.

We already tried this experiment once. Making alcohol illegal did two things.

It actually reduced consumption and alcoholism.

It greatly increased the amount of black market crime, and it drastically changed how it was consumed.

Harm in vice will always occur. We just have to decide if we want it in the form of overdose, or the form of black market versus police state violence.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#139

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

[deleted]

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#140

Post by Kalium »

exclusiv wrote: post #131
senorjazz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

A friend of mine gave her mother a lot of edibles that she made from marijuana she grew when she was suffering through cancer and in a lot of pain. Apparently she was happy until she passed. She had tried chemo at one point and had been miserable of course. My grandma has arthritis and a lot of back pain and the doctor gave her morphine. I doubt anything is better than that but it does seem overly excessive, although…

You're absolutely right! Marijuana has a very useful place as one tool among many for palliative care.

I believe parent may be suggesting that marijuana should not be regarded as a universal substitute for any and all use palliative uses of opiates.

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