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Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#131

Post by pottersbasilisk »

simonh wrote: post #122
67726e wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some STEM fields, like molecular biology, have better than 50% representation of women. I hope those fields have scholarships and campaigns to get underrepresented men into those fields. Your downvotes only serve to highlight your hypocrisy. If balance is the goal, then that needs to occur for all groups in all fields or none at all. Otherwise it's obvious you're just pushing an agenda.

Balance isn't the goal. Equal opportunity is the goal. If the imbalance is due to a lack of interest in a field by one gender or another that's perhaps regrettable but not a moral issue. If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify?

Its clear that certain people here want equal results probably because equal opportunity is much harder to track or destroys certain agendas.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#133

Post by wobbleblob »

cabalamat wrote: post #13

It's because Russia isn't a particularly nice place to live. From the article: > Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects. They do tech because it provides a way of getting a good life. In the West, wh…

> They do tech because it provides a way of getting a good life. In the West, where conditions are less harsh, women don't feel the need to go into tech to get a good life.

But does it now? All of 'the West' isn't Silicon Valley.

I live in 'the west', Western Europe to be exact, and while I probably make more than a plumber or a shoe salesperson, I'd say someone with a medicine, law or business degree tends to make a lot more than I do, under easier conditions, and in those fields, you're not considered old at 40, and you're not on call in the weekends. IN terms of 'a good life', tech isn't the best return on investing 5 or 6 years of your life in a degree.

It's probably not a coincidence that these are the degrees women like to pursue. For a job that requires a college degree, 'tech' isn't that rewarding in terms of money or 'the good life'. It's rewarding in terms of getting to work in tech. You really need to want to work in tech to do it. This may be stupid prejudice of mine, but I get the impression guys tend to think more in terms of what they want, and girls tend to think more in terms of what would be smart of practical.

Now I can imagine that for someone in India or Romania, a degree and skills in tech means you could work for customers in the west or even move there, and make a lot more money than you would otherwise, while a business or law degree and skills don't transfer as well across borders, so the same dynamic of choosing what you want versus what would be the smart choice leads to a different decision.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#134

Post by JabavuAdams »

tptacek wrote: post #62
ohstopitu wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so would you say those fields that have >50% women would need to work on their gender diversity to include more men?

Since molecular biology has something like a 54/46 distribution and tech has something like a 19/81 distribution I'd probably tell anyone who told me I should focus on the injustices of molecular biology to shove it up their ass.

> to shove it up their ass.

C'mon man. You're better than that.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#135

Post by tptacek »

douche wrote: post #113
TorKlingberg wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you mean that >50% is better, but your general point is right. Other STEM fields are not as male dominated. Even physics is not as bad as CS. I had several women TAs in physics, but none in CS/programming.

Others are far worse than IT, like mechanical engineering.

CS, EE, MechE, Physics.

When you say "others" it's helpful to convey the distribution. Overwhelmingly, STEM has better gender parity than CS. And MechE might be the only STEM field worse than CS.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#136

Post by 77pt77 »

belorn wrote: post #117
tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since molecular biology has something like a 54/46 distribution and tech has something like a 19/81 distribution I'd probably tell anyone who told me I should focus on the injustices of molecular biology to shove it up their ass.

54/46 is considered gender equal ratio in Sweden as its within the 40%/40% line. However the argument that we should put our focus based on how high the gender unequal distribution is is an fascinating argument since here in Sweden we have a perfect record of every employed person profession (as part of the tax record). We can list every professions and their gender distribution, and naturally very few of the stem pr…

Where can I find that breakdown of the data?

I'm very interested in looking at the raw numbers.

Thank you.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#137

Post by zolytan »

sanswork wrote: post #38
k__ wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does they say this? Smarter people get fewer children. IQ is inheritable. This only says we get more and more dumber people around the world in general. Maybe parts of the world with more births get the m faster than the rest, but still everyone gets them.

The OP said they are concerned with birth rates in those countries and they replied to the question why with a post about IQ.

I think this stems from the idea that smart people are having less children in those countries, not that those countries have smarter people. Who do you think is more likely to have 7 kids, an engineer or an unemployed person in rural Alabama?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#138

Post by tptacek »

simonh wrote: post #122
67726e wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some STEM fields, like molecular biology, have better than 50% representation of women. I hope those fields have scholarships and campaigns to get underrepresented men into those fields. Your downvotes only serve to highlight your hypocrisy. If balance is the goal, then that needs to occur for all groups in all fields or none at all. Otherwise it's obvious you're just pushing an agenda.

Balance isn't the goal. Equal opportunity is the goal. If the imbalance is due to a lack of interest in a field by one gender or another that's perhaps regrettable but not a moral issue. If the imbalance is due to obstacles or prejudices faced by one gender over another then would you agree that is a moral issue that is more important for society to rectify?

Respectfully, why are you framing this as a question? You don't need anyone's permission to observe that prejudice is an important moral issue --- and the only people who would answer "no" to your question don't sincerely acknowledge moral imperatives in the first place.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#139

Post by nnfy »

moopling wrote: post #66
ohstopitu wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so would you say those fields that have >50% women would need to work on their gender diversity to include more men?

Where are you going to expend your energy? The whole world is full of misogency, do you spend your time trying to fix that, or worry about the compartively small number of times men face unfairness?

Your view needs to be deliberately myopic to seriously believe that a woman's life in a modern first world country is somehow more unfair than a man's. If you're seriously going to play this game regarding fairness of life in general, consider the immense disparity in social and especially sexual capital that women generally hold over and use against men. Not to mention the unspoken preference with which they're hired and retained in the work place.

If you insist on looking at this as an us vs them problem, then most of the remaining problems are self imposed-i.e. the primary ones limiting women from playing with male toys, or going into stem, or dressing in a certain way, are other women. Such is culture.

Edit: my comment has been flagged for daring to espouse the wrong opinion. This is how progress dies, when discussion is stifled. This is, ironically, bias. Why do people believe that moderating unpopular viewpoints makes them disappear?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#140

Post by corpMaverick »

beaconstudios wrote: post #8

my guess: a cultural and social value placed on STEM subjects. My personal theory is that young women in the West are less likely to get into tech because they are seen as stuffy, the domain of greybeards and model train enthusiasts. Don't forget that people generally pick up their core interest in subjects at a young age where social value and coolness are some of the most important personal objectives (early teen y…

Exactly. Programmers are seen as a low status. Many of us did it despite that because we really liked it. Or perhaps we were so socially clueless that we didn't noticed it. Women in general are better at getting those social clues. Anyway, it turned out OK for us. But it would be better if we had more women colleagues.
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