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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#131

Post by femto »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> John Deere tractors run on open source software

Out of curiosity, what range of open source licenses appear in the code base? Do they use any software whose license requires source distribution? If so, are you aware of a "source code" page buried in John Deere's website, or some other mechanism by which they satisfy any distribution clauses?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#132

Post by kodfodrasz »

mabbo wrote: post #69

It's not just the farmer paying for this: it's everyone who eats food. The time wasted is lost productivity. The extra fees just for a software unlock is lost money. The farmer has to either charge more, or go out of business sooner. Either way, the cost of food rises.

The only problems is that the creators of those software did not get their food and tools for free.

Was that also lost productivity?

Maybe we could fix it by giving everything for free!

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#133

Post by goodplay »

LVB wrote: post #108
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #26

I think we'd all be better off if basically everything was open source, by way of eliminating intellectual property protections provided by governments. As an alternate solution, those of us with engineering skills can work to create an open source economy with open source factories, computers, and products. This would never be a problem nor would it be likely to happen if genuinely competitive options existed for fa…

OK I've gotta ask, with such a strong push for "eliminating intellectual property protections", why bother with this footer on your site: © 2017 Objective Bias. All rights reserved.

Not the author, but I similarly support eliminating (well, severely limiting) intellectual property protections and make use copyright at the same time (GPL term enforcement).

With current laws, it's one reasonable way to get close to my ideals. It's the same reason why the Apache 2.0 license is against the friction caused patents by acknowledging them and addressing the issues they raise.

It's using ip law against itself (although I can't really speak for the author in this specific case).

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#134

Post by uuilly »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Thank you. I work in Ag and it seems crazy that someone should be able to buy a machine like those Deere sells and be able to modify the controls SW. Can United Airlines update the controls SW on Boeing 747? I'm not sure how tractors are any different.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#135

Post by intrasight »

The jet engines in a modern airplane have some analogies here. You can think of an engine as a PaaS (Propulsion-as-a-Service). A tractor is HaaS (Harvesting-as-a-Service). Our technologies have reach this level of complexity - the must be offered as a service. Cars will soon be Mobility-as-a-Service. Putting on my economist hat, I'd say that it is the ultimate manifestation of "comparative advantage". If JD abuses their monopoly position, then fix that through the courts and legislation, or by buying a competitors product. Don't try to hack the terms of service. But JD and other "product" vendors need to make it clear that they are in fact selling a service.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#136

Post by snuxoll »

aphextron wrote: post #101
tbyehl wrote: post #47

I'm starting to wonder if these articles are driven by a PR firm paid by John Deere's competition. They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. With the Vice article, 2 of the 3 things they mention are modifying the tractors to operate in ways…

>They're always about John Deere and only John Deere. Aside from the Motherboard / Vice article, they never provide any specifics about the maintenance or repair operations that farms are prevented from doing on their own. John Deere essentially is the entire market for these machines. Especially in the US.

Case IH has a decent foothold in the US, not anywhere near John Deere but it's there. Unfortunately, they're pulling the same bullshit from what I can tell - it's to the point where farmers that aren't part of a co-op or running a large commercial operation where equipment is leased or replaced regularly it's impractical to use new equipment should it break down.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#137

Post by db48x »

lobotryas wrote: post #129
rando832 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

What happens if this independent fix results in a death? Do you really think JD will escape liability?

This is not exactly uncertain ground. Car manufacturers don't have liability when their customers modify their cars. Whoever made my clothes dryer doesn't have liability for any unsafe condition I may or may not have created when I removed that stupid annoying buzzer.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#138

Post by db48x »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #124
grigjd3 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many lines of code does it take to register as the largest you've dealt with? The largest I dealt with took 45 minutes to grab the repo. I don't state that as a point of honor, more like a point in needless over-effort.

I would say the JD's tractor software (if taken in it's entirety) is on par with the modern Linux kernel in size, if not larger. Worse yet, the codebase is spread along many different repositories, teams, and build systems. I've seen integration builds take days to finish (not including running of unit tests). Look I get it, John Deere is evil. But this codebase is beyond any one person or team's comprehension. It's…

All the more reason not to trust it.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#139

Post by throwaway_jddev »

femto wrote: post #131
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> John Deere tractors run on open source software Out of curiosity, what range of open source licenses appear in the code base? Do they use any software whose license requires source distribution? If so, are you aware of a "source code" page buried in John Deere's website, or some other mechanism by which they satisfy any distribution clauses?

I couldn't possibly comment. This would be close to me breaking NDA ground here, so sorry about that. I know that the legal department took software licensing very seriously and we had a narrow range of licenses we could use.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#140

Post by ericd »

intrasight wrote: post #135

The jet engines in a modern airplane have some analogies here. You can think of an engine as a PaaS (Propulsion-as-a-Service). A tractor is HaaS (Harvesting-as-a-Service). Our technologies have reach this level of complexity - the must be offered as a service. Cars will soon be Mobility-as-a-Service. Putting on my economist hat, I'd say that it is the ultimate manifestation of "comparative advantage". If JD abuses th…

Many people do not want to buy things as a service, they want to buy and own something that was built correctly the first time, and if not, is supported for the reasonable lifetime of the product for the cost stated upfront, and can be supported by people outside the company out of their pocket after that.

This as a service model is not inherent to the complexity, it's usually a cash grab.

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