Live data from Hacker News

Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

courses.csail.mit.edu

131–140 of 161 posts

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#131

This fall I will be teaching the required "Discrete Math for CS course" to about fifty students at the University of South Carolina. Previously I used Epp's book [1] which in my opinion is an outstanding book but regrettably is $280.44. Many of our students are working minimum wage jobs to make ends meet, and I don't want to make them pay so much if I can at all help it. Lucky I saw this!! I do have one reservation t…

impendia,

I'm currently taking a discrete mathematics class that Applied Discrete Structures by Alan Doerr and Kenneth Levasseur (http://faculty.uml.edu/klevasseur/ads2/). It's freely available, though I recommend steering away from the PDF on their site as it's got quite a few errors that are corrected in the source on Github.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#132
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But why people buy books is what I don't understand. At least for college and if it's not something you want to own for the future. Throughout most of my semesters I just rented the books. Much cheaper than buying.

It really is a shame that this is a rational solution. University text books should be material to get back to later in life, when confronted with a related problem. Part of university education should be a complete book shelf of well-understood books. This just exemplifies the new nature of university education: An ephemeral experience where the most durable result is debt /cynisism.

I held onto my books to have as references. Of course, this was back when the ubiquitous Internet and "instant access to everything" was some years away.

Why should I be reduced after leaving an education, to solely what I can remember in my head and what my current circumstances keep refreshed in my mind and memory? Education was an enormous investment not just of money but also of time and effort. It makes sense to me to keep the resources I used at hand; it helps keep my access to that education at hand.

Seen that way, while book prices are ridiculous, that expense as compared to the entire expense not just in money but in time and effort, is relatively small. It's an investment I've made against the future, where the best recollection and use of my education may be paramount.

And... Those prices are simply unfair. For a system that purports to provide its students tools for life -- not just formulae, but ways of thinking and being. To then increase the burden on those students of taking with them the references they used and might wish to retain as part of retaining that education... It seems that their actions in this matter oppose their rhetoric.

Then again, even when prices weren't so high, I saw a lot of my fellow students simply discarding their books -- at the end of semester, not just after graduation. Many people do "move on" and live "in the present."

Except, those people then seem to be the ones who can't recall what they learned, and who don't do as thorough and good a job in their work.

Living in the present, without the full benefit of history. And reacting based upon a more or less vague impression, rather than detailed knowledge.

What, really, do our institutions want us to retain? How do they want us to live our lives. As demonstrated through their actions -- e.g. these book prices -- rather than their rhetoric?

Anyway...

As for electronic copies. I find I read a lot better from printed pages than from screen. And, as others have pointed out, the "legitimate" electronic versions all too often come with electronic leases -- leashes -- with access deniable purposefully or inadvertently at any point in the future.

My Discrete Math book is still as accessible to me, today -- with any particular personal notes of interest and focus I may have added -- as it was when I bought it. I had to pay for it, and I've had to schlep it around. But I've also had to do that with my education, taking up premium space in my gray matter. I paid a lot more for the education; I hope and believe keeping the book handy helps me retain that larger value.

P.S. And I still find that the good books provide me more useful and valuable access to their information than an ever more cluttered and noisy Internet -- for all that their are many gems -- resources and contributors -- on it. These days, if you can only find them.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is extortionate. What is the justification for a book being priced at nearly $300? This is one book of how many a student will need that semester? Are school's getting a piece of this as well? Is this why such a racket is permitted? That is a bit high for textbooks, most textbooks are usually "only" in the realm of $80-160. That said, math textbooks are usually far more expensive than others. The excuse given…

I spent a little time working at Pearson on a textbook project, and yeah, they're pretty profitable, but the up-front costs are enormous. The production budget for the biology book I worked on was $10 million. And that was for a book that would be widely used at the high-school level. For a math book like this, I'd guess they spent more like a million getting it done. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $50-100K just f…

There is something more than just high production costs going on, though, for math books. Consider Apostol's "Calculus". Volume I new is $150-270 on Amazon. Volume II new is $160-270.

These were first published around 1961. A second edition of Volume I was published in 1967, and a second edition of Volume II in 1969. There have been no further editions. The schools that use Apostol today are still using those late '60s second editions.

They were about $20 per volume when I bought them in 1977, which is equivalent to about $80 per volume in today's money.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is extortionate. What is the justification for a book being priced at nearly $300? This is one book of how many a student will need that semester? Are school's getting a piece of this as well? Is this why such a racket is permitted? That is a bit high for textbooks, most textbooks are usually "only" in the realm of $80-160. That said, math textbooks are usually far more expensive than others. The excuse given…

I spent a little time working at Pearson on a textbook project, and yeah, they're pretty profitable, but the up-front costs are enormous. The production budget for the biology book I worked on was $10 million. And that was for a book that would be widely used at the high-school level. For a math book like this, I'd guess they spent more like a million getting it done. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $50-100K just f…

You've gotten me extremely curious. How did they manage to spend $10 million?

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#135
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd advise people just to get an iPad Pro and get electronic versions of these books. Makes for an eternal and ever growing bookshelf, and has been much cheaper to maintain than my previous physical library.

That's the received wisdom, yeah. The party line etc etc. I am not so sure though. One has to factor in the possibility and ease of losing the device, or rights to the content that I have backed up on the cloud. Way too many people have the ability to intervene between me and the content. I appreciate the convenience of not having to move shit ton of bleached and pulped wood, but then I have to worry less about DRM,…

None of the books in my electronic library comes with DRM ;-)

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#136
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is a shame that this is a rational solution. University text books should be material to get back to later in life, when confronted with a related problem. Part of university education should be a complete book shelf of well-understood books. This just exemplifies the new nature of university education: An ephemeral experience where the most durable result is debt /cynisism.

I'd advise people just to get an iPad Pro and get electronic versions of these books. Makes for an eternal and ever growing bookshelf, and has been much cheaper to maintain than my previous physical library.

I find it much easier to recall details of material I've read in a physical textbook rather than an e-book. The unique cover, weight, texture, etc. of a physical volume provides more context cues that flag the experience of reading as noteworthy, and thus as something that tends to stick out relative to other memories.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#137
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a little time working at Pearson on a textbook project, and yeah, they're pretty profitable, but the up-front costs are enormous. The production budget for the biology book I worked on was $10 million. And that was for a book that would be widely used at the high-school level. For a math book like this, I'd guess they spent more like a million getting it done. I wouldn't be surprised if it was $50-100K just f…

There is something more than just high production costs going on, though, for math books. Consider Apostol's "Calculus". Volume I new is $150-270 on Amazon. Volume II new is $160-270. These were first published around 1961. A second edition of Volume I was published in 1967, and a second edition of Volume II in 1969. There have been no further editions. The schools that use Apostol today are still using those late '6…

I estimate the "fair" price of a textbook to be around $50-80; math (particularly calculus) is a textbook price I consider to be more naturally expensive, since they tend to cover more material. Your estimation of decades-old textbooks costing about $80 in today's money seems to vindicate that viewpoint.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it an American thing to force your students to buy textbooks? In Britain (at least at the universities that I know about) there tends to be 2 or 3 recommended texts, of which the library will have several copies, and they're meant for reference when you get stuck rather than learning the entire course.

Lots of instructors assign from books without reproducing the problems for students without books. Hence, it's typically required to have a book for a class. US University libraries will typically have copies of all textbooks used in any university class. Whether or not they have enough copies at any given time is another issue.

Also whether or not they have the updated edition with all questions...

I ran into that problem with my Operating Systems course this semester, I was just going to scan the problems I needed, but then found out they were different since the book was 4 editions behind.

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#139
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some sorts of code, you can get a lot of mileage from "loop invariants" and "loop variants". Understanding these is more or less the same as understanding proof by induction. Whether you are missing anything depends on whether you ever write the sort of code that benefits from this. (Even if you do, you still might not be missing anything. You might be comfortable with loop invariants but not have connected them w…

I'm afraid you're not very good at explaining yourself, I've no idea what point you're trying to make. Sorry to burst your bubble, but any moderately complex LOB CRUD app usually has a large amount of far more complex algos than a binary sort. Your off-hand comment shows a total ignorance of what's involved in writing a LOB CRUD web app. In my experience, algos are the really easy part of programming. The hard part i…

(It looks like you've been downvoted a lot. For what it's worth, it wasn't me.)

I didn't claim that CRUD apps don't have complexity in them. I claimed that CRUD apps don't typically have the sort of thing in them for which this kind of small-scale semi-formal stuff is useful in them. I am happy to stand by that claim; do you actually disagree with it?

I get the impression that you think I was being sniffy about CRUD apps. I wasn't. In particular, (1) I don't think CRUD apps are low-value. There are plenty of CRUD apps that add much more value to the world than almost any piece of code of the sort that invariants are super-helpful for. And (2) I don't think that CRUD apps are easy. Well, doubtless some are, but as you say they commonly have huge amounts of complication in them, of a sort that isn't amenable to the kind of formalized reasoning I was talking about.

To answer the implied question in your first sentence: I wasn't trying to make a point, I was giving an answer to a question you asked, namely why mathematical induction might be important for programmers.

Briefer and more explicit version of that answer: For people writing certain kinds of code, understanding mathematical induction makes it easier to reason about that code via techniques such as loop invariants, which makes it easier to make that code bullet-proof. There are many other kinds of code for which nothing closely related to mathematical induction is of any value at all.

(And, to reiterate lest I set the bee in your bonnet buzzing again: Whether a kind of code benefits from this sort of technique has basically nothing to do with how important it is, or how difficult it is to write overall, or what anyone should think of the people writing it.)

Re: Mathematics for Computer Science [pdf]

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A central tenet of capitalism is a competitive market though It's true that a lot of the defense of capitalism that was ginned up (long) after the system was described and named by its critics involves invoking all kinds of hokum about markets which are both free and competitive which not only has nothing to do with anything in the history of capitalism, but isn't even all that internally consistent because of the…

Again I was responding to your comment: >"The justift for its price is that the market will bear it." The market will bear it and the market has no choice to bear it are two different things. I have not "rationalized" anything.

> The market will bear it and the market has no choice to bear it are two different things.

With textbooks, there is a choice: go without (either taking the class anyway or not.)

That your perceived cost from going without is higher than the cost of paying for the book is, arguably a sign that the book is priced correctly for value. You seem to think that the book "ought" to be priced by cost to produce as they would be in a perfectly competitive market, but that's very often not a feature of real markets. The pricing is based on conditions in the market, which is very much a real -- if very much not an ideal -- market.

Post reply on HN