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To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

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Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#131
post #16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the majority of it probably isn't 'how the world should be', a man is going free because (we speculate) that the evidence against him was gathered illegally. This bit probably is 'how the world should be'.

How so? In general if a criminal goes free despite having evidence against him just because the evidence was not obtained legally ... it sounds rather wrong to me.

Then I would encourage to get yourself over to your local community college and learn why things are the way they are in the legal system. You'll spend a fair amount of time talking about the different schools of thought on law in what law is and is supposed to do. First of all, you need a conviction or a confession to call him a criminal. This, or any other case, has nothing to do with any _one_ person or party. It has everything to do with _everyone_ else. You're not seeing the lasting consequences beyond The People v. Random Pedo. To be honest, society doesn't really need your input on how law should work if your only criteria to strip someone of their freedom or to execute them is whether or not one has been accused. You'd function more appropriately in 17th century colonial Massachusetts. The exclusionary rule in this country has only existed in its (mostly) current form since 1920, but has been a legal concept for many centuries. The main question to be answered in Silverthorne Lumber Co. v. United States involved the applications of 4th amendment. In general, if our system of law allows for derivatives which are illegal obtained then you have no need for the 4th amendment protection. I shouldn't need to tell you what happens when militarized drug agencies execute a no-knock warrant on the wrong house. I shouldn't need to tell you what happens when a sheriff beats the shit out of a guy they picked up off the street to force a confession. I shouldn't need to tell you how this could be used to destroy the life or credibility of a political opponent, or to shutup a media organization. I shouldn't have to tell you that this would be a grand method for imprisoning more minorities on the basis of race, or that this would all but ensure a fair trial is impossible. But...your argument is about _legitimate_ evidence obtained illegally. I may have to tell you that if your solution were to be implemented then you'll need to tell the rest of us how we go about prosecuting the prosecution. Who's going to bring that lawsuit against them? And you may have to tell the rest of us what the legal test is to ensure that illegally obtained evidence is also not _manufactured_ evidence, because insofar as I am aware, no such legal test exists.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is the evidence. A criminal is a criminal. Someone up this chain of thread was making that point.

And illegal is illegal. The investigation agencies have to make their case within the bounds of the law, they are not above it.

Yeah, meanwhile, you're going to have cases where you sent someone to prison(or perhaps killed them) and have absolutely no reason to believe the verdict was undeserved. Everyone thinks that the court cases will go like this.

Judge: Did you obtain this evidence illegally? Prosecution: Yes we did, your honor. Judge: Okay, trial on that starts Monday.

No...you'll have to legally make it so the exclusionary rule is not a defense...i.e, the number of times that this is even brought up will inevitably diminish to 0. Admittedly, it does exist, but the legal system tries it damnest to remove gray areas. At the very least, you will need a legal test to prove that the evidence was not manufactured. You know of any?

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#133
post #20

The prosecutors said they may file charges later (according to the article). They may just want to keep from revealing the details as long as possible -- but could re-file the same charges years later, right before the Statute of Limitations.

This actually bothers me greatly. Not carrying through once charges are filed should be equivalent to "not guilty".

Well, they're requesting the case be dismissed without prejudice. The judge doesn't have to grant the request. Whether it will be dismissed with or without prejudice remains to be seen

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A federal judge deny qualified immunity? I'm struggling to contain my incredulity. There are instances where cops shot people who were unarmed and attempting to comply, where filmed doing it from multiple angles, and the cops still walked.

There also cases where cops shot people and the cops went to jail, but nobody talks about those. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage...

Of course not. The justice system actually working shouldn't be remarkable enough to warrant a news cycle.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#135
post #105

This is what happens when the net is more important than the fish.

which is pretty crazy, because crimes involving CP are some of the biggest whales that exist in our society.

Not really. CP possession convictions happen routinely. They're treated as a serious crime but usually not as serious as, say, premeditated murder.

Producing it is of course another matter.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#136
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. That does not follow at all. What it means is that the undercover police illegally collecting evidence is convicted, _and_ the child pornographer is convicted.

How do you trust the evidence of someone who you can prove(to the point of conviction) is willing to do illegal things to gather the evidence?

The credibility of the police is usually not the main basis of assessing evidence. It's not really that often that the authenticity of evidence is called into question at all. But sure, it could happend.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#137
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only proof you have that it IS evidence is the word of someone who you know is willing to break the rules to secure a conviction.

I thought an evidence was an objective piece of data, not someone's word.

An objective piece of data like what? A digital photo? A network traffic log? A printed photograph? A phone call recording?

These are _all_ based on someone's word, in a world of Photoshop, text editors, hex editors, scanners and printers, voice synthesis, etc.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you trust the evidence of someone who you can prove(to the point of conviction) is willing to do illegal things to gather the evidence?

The credibility of the police is usually not the main basis of assessing evidence. It's not really that often that the authenticity of evidence is called into question at all. But sure, it could happend.

We are talking about them breaking the law. The reason there credibility usually isn't questioned is because they know that if they do that the evidence will be rejected so they are compelled to be honest. Once that is out why wouldn't they be questioned they are proving a willingness to do something illegal to get a conviction. Manufacturing evidence isn't unbelievable at that point.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#139

I think they want to to disclose. I think prosecutors expected that they would be allowed to do so by now. They probably assumed the exploit would have been patched away, or that some better tool would have come allong by this point in time. Id bet good money that this tool is still in active use by some three-letter agency. Should it be discovered or patched before the SOL, its intel value will drop and prosecutions…

That was my thought as well. Especially since they dismissed the case in such a way that they can bring it back later. Might as well use it to collect evidence while they can, and then bring all the charges when the exploit is fixed and it's not useful any more. It sucks that the pervert in the case is going free (for now), but I would guess the experience scared him enough that he won't be doing it again any time so…

Dont go too nutz about him not going to jail. An arrest on child porn charges destroys one's life. Guilt or innocence doesnt matter. Jobs are lots. Families are broken apart. Neighbours now hate you. This man's life will never be the same. And he hasnt had any day in court. We should not judge too harshly.

Re: To keep Tor hack source code secret, DOJ dismisses child porn case

#140
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason we believe the exclusionary rule works so well is that it strikes directly at the incentive structure for the police. That's debatable. Parallel construction seems pretty common. The NSA shares information with the FBI, DEA etc, and then they exploit that information to collect clean evidence. So there's never any mention of NSA help. Of course, that arguably involves perjury. But judges seem pretty OK w…

By "pretty common", you mean, "I've heard of it", right?

Point taken. But I've heard repeatedly about it, involving different sorts of illegal data, over some years. And the discovery rate is arguably low. That suggests to me that it's common.
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