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DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

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Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#131

Post by gwright »

Tulip68 wrote: post #22

This is not hyperbole: if this statement is accurate, a coup d'etat is in progress in which our illegitimate "President" is overriding the authority of the judicial branch and it is time for every American who still believes in our constitution and our fundamental values of equality, diversity and multiculturalism take a stand and along with every congressman, every law enforcement officer, reporter, corporation, etc…

I find this sort of overwrought rhetoric more disturbing than lawful, if objectionable, policy changes.

We've got institutional processes for dealing with executive branch policies that we disagree with. It certainly looks like the legislature and the judiciary are responding and peaceful assembly and protest can help motivate change as can healthy reporting by the press.

On the other hand you are advocating for overthrow of the government and a complete disregard for the democratic process and the rule of law. Instead of arguing on the merits your spit out overwrought accusations of fraudulent, fascist, and psychotic behavior.

Our most cherished value is that of the rule of law. Even in the presence of flawed policies and corrupt practices, belief and adherence to the rule of law provides a way to respond to and rectify these mistakes. Asserting that things are so bad that the rule of law should be disregarded and that someone should be removed from office because you don't agree with their lawful policy changes is a certain path to disaster.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#132

Post by smsm42 »

Tulip68 wrote: post #22

This is not hyperbole: if this statement is accurate, a coup d'etat is in progress in which our illegitimate "President" is overriding the authority of the judicial branch and it is time for every American who still believes in our constitution and our fundamental values of equality, diversity and multiculturalism take a stand and along with every congressman, every law enforcement officer, reporter, corporation, etc…

New rule: if post starts with "this is not a hyperbole", the chance of it being hyperbole are >95%. So far confirms very well.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#133

Post by nl »

Tulip68 wrote: post #110
tn13 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> put aside petty partisan bickering and remove this fascist con-man from office immediately. All I see is the fascist partisan bickering in your post. Trump has legitimately won the election and is doing what his powers let him do. He was clear about Muslim ban before election too and people voted for him. I think we can make better arguments as to why his moronic executive orders hurt USA in a major way and perhaps…

He lost the popular vote by millions of votes. The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos (and boy have they ever succeeded). And don't you dare lecture me about getting "angry" over this. Why don't you learn some empathy and consider how you'd f…

Anti-Trump person here, although not from the US.

The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos

While it is extremely clear that Russian propaganda helped Trump, it doesn't explain now the Republicans ended up with majorities in all houses, and also have a majority of governors.

I think Democrats need to confront some hard truths: The popular vote means shit (because CA and NY). Pretending otherwise means nothing.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#134

Post by gwright »

Tulip68 wrote: post #110
tn13 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> put aside petty partisan bickering and remove this fascist con-man from office immediately. All I see is the fascist partisan bickering in your post. Trump has legitimately won the election and is doing what his powers let him do. He was clear about Muslim ban before election too and people voted for him. I think we can make better arguments as to why his moronic executive orders hurt USA in a major way and perhaps…

He lost the popular vote by millions of votes. The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos (and boy have they ever succeeded). And don't you dare lecture me about getting "angry" over this. Why don't you learn some empathy and consider how you'd f…

You are clearly advocating for something beyond a more appropriate processing of green card and visa holders.

In fact you seem to be arguing that the US has some sort of obligation to accept millions of immigrants, refugees, and 'undocumented migrants' because ...? The US hasn't had an open border policy like that for over 100 years. Freaking out about Friday's policy changes with overwrought and hyperbolic language isn't very persuasive towards a different policy.

There is a very reasonable argument based on due process that the administration's implementation of these visa changes was bungled terribly and that it will create some considerable hardship for people in-transit or out-of-country. I hope that this situation gets quickly addressed and that the administration takes a bit more care in its administrative logistics going forward.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#135

Post by sago »

colechristensen wrote: post #126
sago wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect this is the angle they are going for. And, as I said, I think it unwise to read stuff into words, when actions are what counts. Just FWIW, from what I can interpret, the ruling is broader than just the people currently 'on the ground' - they were the petitioners, but the judgement was not limited to them, but to: "individuals with refugee applications approved by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services as…

Your interpretation isn't the interpretation being put forward by journalists. I am not a lawyer, but I am inclined to believe Reuters more. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-chao...

Oh, I'd be inclined to believe anyone with an ounce of experience in the area over me!

That said, after another hour of research, I think I got it now :) I think I wasn't wrong, just my point about the judgement was totally moot. The deportation issue only arose because when the executive action came into force there were already flights with confirmed passengers (either in the air, or soon to leave). So they'd gone through the pre-flight checking under the old rules, but landed at immigration under the new rules. But the way of enforcing the action will be to prevent people flying in the first place. Passport details are required to be sent to DHS before a passenger boards a plane to the US, and have been for a long time, nothing new there. And DHS routinely prevents people flying at source. So the deportation issue shouldn't arise for new passengers (modulo edge cases like someone on a transatlantic cruise who'll ship up in New York at some point). So if I'm now right, the journalists are correct, this judgement will only apply in practice to those who are currently being detained for deportation.

But again, I'm happy to emphasise that I have done roughly 2 hours of online reading in this area now :) I'm posting here to try and figure it out, not to claim expertise!

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#136

Post by hyperdunc »

Tulip68 wrote: post #22

This is not hyperbole: if this statement is accurate, a coup d'etat is in progress in which our illegitimate "President" is overriding the authority of the judicial branch and it is time for every American who still believes in our constitution and our fundamental values of equality, diversity and multiculturalism take a stand and along with every congressman, every law enforcement officer, reporter, corporation, etc…

Since when are diversity and multiculturalism part of our fundamental values?

There's certainly an argument to be made that diversity of thought and behavior has a net positive effect on society.

However, it's become apparent that the dogma of multiculturalism is causing major problems where a certain religion is concerned. We'd be foolish to ignore this fact.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#137

Post by hyperdunc »

nl wrote: post #133
Tulip68 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He lost the popular vote by millions of votes. The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos (and boy have they ever succeeded). And don't you dare lecture me about getting "angry" over this. Why don't you learn some empathy and consider how you'd f…

Anti-Trump person here, although not from the US. The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos While it is extremely clear that Russian propaganda helped Trump, it doesn't explain now the Republicans ended up with majorities in all houses, and also…

The parent poster is steeped in identity politics, and such people do not confront hard truths. I don't expect much from corporate democrats either. There is a movement within the party called Justice Democrats that might have a chance at reform if they gain enough traction.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#138

Post by notacoward »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #60
Tulip68 wrote: post #22

This is not hyperbole: if this statement is accurate, a coup d'etat is in progress in which our illegitimate "President" is overriding the authority of the judicial branch and it is time for every American who still believes in our constitution and our fundamental values of equality, diversity and multiculturalism take a stand and along with every congressman, every law enforcement officer, reporter, corporation, etc…

Trump is an asshole however he is our legitimate president no mater how much some of us do not like it. He won the election as the rules require. Period. Let's not forget that. The office should be respected no matter what asswipe he is in it. If you disagree with his policies then call your congressman, et. al. Protest by all means. That is your right as an American. He was elected because a large majority of people…

Trump can only be a legitimate president under our constitution. If he fails to respect the limits on presidential power laid out by that constitution, including the right and responsibility of the judicial branch to block an order deemed unconstitutional, then he disavows the very document on which his legitimacy is predicated. To say that he's legitimate under those conditions is not even wrong. It's gibberish.

Re: DHS will continue to enforce all of President Trump’s Executive Orders

#139

Post by maxerickson »

gwright wrote: post #134
Tulip68 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He lost the popular vote by millions of votes. The majority of America has made it very clear they do not want this fascist to be their President and the only reason he got through is because of Russian hacking our election to try and throw our country into chaos (and boy have they ever succeeded). And don't you dare lecture me about getting "angry" over this. Why don't you learn some empathy and consider how you'd f…

You are clearly advocating for something beyond a more appropriate processing of green card and visa holders. In fact you seem to be arguing that the US has some sort of obligation to accept millions of immigrants, refugees, and 'undocumented migrants' because ...? The US hasn't had an open border policy like that for over 100 years. Freaking out about Friday's policy changes with overwrought and hyperbolic language…

The chaos is intentional. They didn't bungle it, they did exactly what they intended to do.
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