Uber Movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber Movement

#131

Post by return0 » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

usmeteora wrote: post #125

return0 wrote: post #48

Uber however caters to a specific class of people and they don't seem to be the people who can only afford public transport. This may not be an issue in America, but i think if cities change their public transit planning to accomodate the class of people who can afford uber, they will be disadvantaging those who really need it.

I don't know about that. Computers and Tvs and cellphones used to be only for rich elite businessmen, now, not everyone can afford to have one, but even lower middle class people can pick up a $200 chromebook, or finance a phone and the technology they have access to for the same or very similiar prices gets better every year. There are actually very few things in life in which the quality and amount of it that can b…

That is irrelevant. Uber is not going to become so cheap that even the poorest person can afford it, neither are taxis some new and exciting discovery. Uber is not going to replace mass transit either, because the traffic problem will become impossible to solve. Therefore optimizing a city for uber does not mean it is optimized in general.

Re: Uber Movement

#132

Post by usmeteora » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #117

losvedir wrote: post #51

Very interesting. I worry about a selection bias, though. Uber riders are wealthier than average, so the trips won't necessarily reflect all the commutes of those in the city. I hope this doesn't lead to just an improvement in bus routes, road construction, traffic, etc. between nicer sections of the city.

I get the impression that much of America has the opposite problem. "The bus" is seen as something for the poor, which no self-respecting middle-class person would ride. The result is more cars on the road, more pollution, and less funding for public transit, since taxpayers are less willing to subsidize a system that's not for them. In places with good public transit, it is seen a something that directly benefits ev…

a bus in my city more than quadruples the time to get anywhere around or near my city. That means a 15minute car ride can take 1.5hours on a bus.

Most people who can afford a car will opt out of spending 3 hours a day on a bus, but for people who don't have any other option, they are burdened with this on top of working long minimum wage hours, and walking their groceries 1/2 mile home in the freezing cold with their children after a 10 hour shift, and judged for not being able to get themselves out of a bad situation.

Whatever the cost of an uber ride is, can be earned back multiple time in the amount of time people could work more, or allow them to come home and spend more time with their children instead of keeping them in after school public welfare programs which is shown to decrease crime over time.

In general, unless you are in Boston or NYC, the option of a bus is really the only option, and it is a disgraceful and absurd option for poor people working long hours at minimal pay. Ive ridden the public bus system in my city. It's a joke. I feel sad for people who have to navigate to work using it everyday, especially considering the majority of jobs that provide any hope of economic mobility are on "the other side of town" taxing their time even more to navigate further.

It is unreasonable to assume the working poor who are more statistically likely to have kids are not at an exponential disadvantage when a 15minute ride to work takes roughly 25% of their waking day, when maximizing hours worked is important with less pay, and kids are left in understaffed public daycare programs or unsupervised in areas with high crime rates at home. What do we expect?

Re: Uber Movement

#133

Post by rmxt » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #128

wpietri wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C'mon. I've seen you posting here for years . Of course I've seen you do more than express mere disagreement on a single topic. Disagreement is the norm here. What you do -- what you consistently do -- goes miles beyond that. And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you to perform the exact behavior in question: aggressively demanding that somebody educate you. Not because it looks like you're sincerel…

And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you... Am I correct in thinking you are new here, and unfamiliar with the format of HN? Just FYI, comments on HN are usually not addressed to any particular person. The format here is actually an open discussion that anyone can participate in. aggressively demanding that somebody educate you Could you link to the comment of mine which you believe is an "aggressi…

Just FYI, you can click their name and view their profile to see how old the account is.

I can't speak to the "not addressed to you" portion of the GP's post, because I do believe than HN benefits from its open discussion format, that allows for both threaded discussion and open commenting. But, I would venture to say that it's quite deceitful, i.e. an "aggressive demand", to drop in what you apparently know (c.f. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13354198) will be an analogy (this one here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353366) that inspires "negative emotions" without providing any supporting arguments or information in the same post.

Rather than starting from a point that (you do seem to know) will be inflammatory, why not start from claims directly related to the topic at hand, and work your way up to the point where the logic of making the analogy is immaculately clear? In this thread, you start with a 'jump' (straight to the civil rights movement), and then trickle out the details in children comments [1,2,3,5] as to why your point is relevant, and why people should ignore their emotional responses [4,5] like you do. Inducing emotional responses in others with one's writing is inevitable -- do you actually want to convince people of why your point holds water (using something like the strategy I propose), or do you only want to evoke anger and get people turning away in a huff (what you've done in this thread)?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13354048

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353661

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13354108

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13354198

[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13357684

Re: Uber Movement

#134

Post by pfarnsworth » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 8:51 PM UTC

kirykl wrote: post #88

pfarnsworth wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you actually know anything about their lease program? The lease program is designed for Uber drivers who want to work full-time. There's no mileage limit, and it's meant to just return the vehicle, so things like residual value, etc are meaningless. Uber drivers can easily put on 70k miles in a year, something you never could do on a traditional lease. And you can walk away from the lease with a 2 weeks notice. Ho…

Walk away with 2 weeks notice but will be on the hook for full lease if done after 30 days + first payment

Just to clarify, you're completely wrong about the program. As I said, it's designed for full-time drivers, not casual drivers. But you can return it after 30 days with 2 weeks notice, and that's it. You are not on the hook for payments. It has unlimited miles and it includes oil change, air filter and tire rotations.

http://therideshareguy.com/uber-xchange-leasing-a-kinder-and...

Re: Uber Movement

#135

Post by SamReidHughes » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #133

yummyfajitas wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you... Am I correct in thinking you are new here, and unfamiliar with the format of HN? Just FYI, comments on HN are usually not addressed to any particular person. The format here is actually an open discussion that anyone can participate in. aggressively demanding that somebody educate you Could you link to the comment of mine which you believe is an "aggressi…

Just FYI, you can click their name and view their profile to see how old the account is. I can't speak to the "not addressed to you" portion of the GP's post, because I do believe than HN benefits from its open discussion format, that allows for both threaded discussion and open commenting. But, I would venture to say that it's quite deceitful, i.e. an "aggressive demand", to drop in what you apparently know (c.f. ht…

> In this thread, you start with a 'jump' (straight to the civil rights movement), and then trickle out the details in children comments [1,2,3,5] as to why your point is relevant,

It should be very clear from the original post why the point is relevant. Some people might need some extra explaining, but they try their best to need it.

Re: Uber Movement

#136

Post by rmxt » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 9:22 PM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #135

rmxt wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI, you can click their name and view their profile to see how old the account is. I can't speak to the "not addressed to you" portion of the GP's post, because I do believe than HN benefits from its open discussion format, that allows for both threaded discussion and open commenting. But, I would venture to say that it's quite deceitful, i.e. an "aggressive demand", to drop in what you apparently know (c.f. ht…

> In this thread, you start with a 'jump' (straight to the civil rights movement), and then trickle out the details in children comments [1,2,3,5] as to why your point is relevant, It should be very clear from the original post why the point is relevant. Some people might need some extra explaining, but they try their best to need it.

The depths to which this thread has reached suggests that the point's relevance (or perhaps more appropriately, "appropriateness") is not as clear as you seem to think.

Your slight towards other posters aside, what is easier to change? The HN-commentariat at large ("they try their best to need it")? Or, each of us as individuals, trying to compose our arguments and points in a widely receivable, understandable, and relatable way? (That is, what I am trying to encourage above.)

Re: Uber Movement

#137

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 9:25 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #128

wpietri wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C'mon. I've seen you posting here for years . Of course I've seen you do more than express mere disagreement on a single topic. Disagreement is the norm here. What you do -- what you consistently do -- goes miles beyond that. And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you to perform the exact behavior in question: aggressively demanding that somebody educate you. Not because it looks like you're sincerel…

And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you... Am I correct in thinking you are new here, and unfamiliar with the format of HN? Just FYI, comments on HN are usually not addressed to any particular person. The format here is actually an open discussion that anyone can participate in. aggressively demanding that somebody educate you Could you link to the comment of mine which you believe is an "aggressi…

Yes, this the kind of argumentative jackassery I don't have time for.

You of course can tell how long I've been here, especially since I said so in the post you responded to. You of course can figure out that I'm familiar with the format of HN. You of course know I have already declined to educate you. You of course are not confused, but are conflating social help (which is what you are asking me and others for) with mental help (which is not a bad thing either). And you of course declined to address my actual point, instead picking out things to snipe at.

These are all bad-faith argumentative techniques. They are exactly why I'm not interested in in answering your questions. They are not sincere questions.

Re: Uber Movement

#138

Post by jayajay » Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

inimino wrote: post #124

jayajay wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, he is. If you can't provide a valid argument, then a rational outsider has no reason to believe anything you say. Simply saying someone is wrong is not useful, and makes you look like a pleb. Racism has been around for a long time and has been institutionalized and perpetuated by our own state (US, for example). One can hardly say it is "obvious" how people should feel towards racism and how it relates to o…

He is not owed an explanation, just as you getting on your soapbox about racism in a thread about Uber doesn't obligate me to engage you.

Actually, he is, the minute you disagreed with him. I feel like I made that rather clear. If you don't that's your shortcoming, not his.

Re: Uber Movement

#139

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 1:17 AM UTC

rmxt wrote: post #133

yummyfajitas wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And note that you sought out a comment not addressed to you... Am I correct in thinking you are new here, and unfamiliar with the format of HN? Just FYI, comments on HN are usually not addressed to any particular person. The format here is actually an open discussion that anyone can participate in. aggressively demanding that somebody educate you Could you link to the comment of mine which you believe is an "aggressi…

Just FYI, you can click their name and view their profile to see how old the account is. I can't speak to the "not addressed to you" portion of the GP's post, because I do believe than HN benefits from its open discussion format, that allows for both threaded discussion and open commenting. But, I would venture to say that it's quite deceitful, i.e. an "aggressive demand", to drop in what you apparently know (c.f. ht…

...without providing any supporting arguments or information in the same post.

Nothing in the comments you linked to is, textually speaking, a demand. Would you describe my comment as an "aggressive demand" if I were simply expressing ideas that are completely conventional?

work your way up to the point where the logic of making the analogy is immaculately clear?

Assuming I were expressing conventional ideas, would it be necessary for me to address every possible counterpoint in the original comment to avoid making an "aggressive demand"?

I think you are wrong in suggesting that people didn't understand the logic. Here are a bunch of comments that understood just fine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353968 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13353794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13354341

Inducing emotional responses in others with one's writing is inevitable -- do you actually want to convince people of why your point holds water (using something like the strategy I propose), or do you only want to evoke anger and get people turning away in a huff (what you've done in this thread)?

Paul Graham wrote a great essay a while back called "how to disagree". Levels 0-2 (name calling, ad hominem and responding to tone, respectively) are quite common in the broader world. As Trump vs Crooked Hillary demonstrates, level 0 is quite effective at persuading the masses. http://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

On HN, I generally make the good faith assumption that we can discuss things at a higher level (e.g. 4 or higher). This thread definitely demonstrates that as a belief about the world, this is probably not super accurate.

Is it your genuine belief that if I phrased my comment differently, I would have avoided the level 0-2 reactions to it? How would you have phrased it?

Re: Uber Movement

#140

Post by nerflad » Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 1:28 AM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #120

Camillo wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression that much of America has the opposite problem. "The bus" is seen as something for the poor, which no self-respecting middle-class person would ride. The result is more cars on the road, more pollution, and less funding for public transit, since taxpayers are less willing to subsidize a system that's not for them. In places with good public transit, it is seen a something that directly benefits ev…

I went to LA and took the bus from the airport to the city (my default transit choice when there isn't a train). I had a pleasant ride but I was surprised to find that I was the only white person on a maybe half-full bus. I haven't encountered this kind of self-segregation on public transport anywhere else in the world before or since.

That is the norm in the Southern cities I've been to -- especially Jacksonville (my home). Hell, even in Atlanta, a relatively well-integrated city, the backronym meaning for MARTA[0] has existed practically since it began.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Atlanta_Rapid_Tra...