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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#131

Post by pesfandiar »

PrimalDual wrote: post #115
wildmusings wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending? Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways? In the US at least I strongly opp…

Printing money out of thin air also robs the productive part of the society out of their assets. A higher inflation without an actual increase in productivity (and thus investment returns) will reduce the value of everyone's assets. This sort of "Robin Hood" schemes have been executed by some populist governments, but I don't know of any which worked out well.

The only fundamental difference is taxing income to pay for welfare vs. taxing wealth.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#132

Post by clarry »

stale2002 wrote: post #69
henrikschroder wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying there's no way to reach post-labour before post-scarcity? Hmm, that's interesting, I hope it's not true.

There certainly is! Prices for goods just need to keep dropping, as they have already been doing to. If they keep dropping, then our existing welfare system will handle the rest. If the percent money that society spends in welfare state the same, and goods get cheaper and cheaper, then that means that living off welfare will eventually be a pretty sweet deal, able to provide all your wants and needs.

There are more goods than just smartphones. Arguably more important ones too.

Rent, food, energy, all the things you need to live are getting more expensive with inflation. The welfare system is lagging behind and the benefits need to be bumped a little every year or so or it gets harder and harder to live on them. Unfortunately we apparently can't always seem to afford to increase the benefits. For instance student benefits in Finland were "cut" by simply not increasing them in accordance with the index.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#133

Post by nico_h »

bbcbasic wrote: post #94
lnanek2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The things he lists to justify calling Wall Street that are real, however: " When I see, for example, that you’re making millions by laundering drug-cartel money (HSBC), or pushing bad paper on mutual fund managers (AIG, Bear Stearns, Morgan Stanley, Citibank), or preying on low-income borrowers (Bank of America), or buying votes in Congress (all of the above) – just business as usual on Wall Street – while I’m barel…

Glass houses. Monsanto. Mc Donalds. Uber. .... Not just wall street doing unethical stuff so why pick on them and call them gangsters?

Maybe because they made their money playing with imaginary numbers and caused huge amounts of harm to the economy and lots of people when it all blew up in their face?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#134

Post by winter_blue »

PrimalDual wrote: post #115
wildmusings wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending? Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways? In the US at least I strongly opp…

> not print money to cover their spending? [...] Would inflation of 4% be that bad

Inflation is a tax on currency holdings. So if a person has $10,000 and inflation is 4%, they are effectively paying a $400 tax on it –– because the -4% loss of value is transferred to the one causing the inflation, i.e. the printer of money, which is the government. The people would just divest their US dollar holdings, and switch to investments with better capital preservation, and ROI.

> a rigged system where the wealthy can avoid paying their fair share [...] But inflation in a sense is unavoidable and progressive

Most people with non-trivial savings invest their money. People who have a basic level of understanding of how to manage their finances understand that cash in a bad investment. The US dollar has an effective "investment yield" of -2%. The best interest rates you can get in the US, don't exceed 2%. If I lock up my money in a 5-year CD (certificate of deposit), I get close to 0% returns. Why would I ever settle for 0% returns on such a terrible illiquid investments?

Most sensible people will invest any cash (USD/etc) they have, and will aim to maximize their investment returns, concordant with their investment goals. Most of the wealth in the world (held by people with lots of savings, and by companies/institutions) is in the form of stock/shares and bonds. Currency is just a medium for transmission/exchange of money. Most of the wealth in the world is held in stocks, bonds, and property, and not in currency.

> the wealthy can avoid paying their fair share through loop holes and classifying their income differently than mine

The solution to that is simply going back to classifying capital gains[1], dividends[2], and carried interest[3] as regular taxable income. The current regular federal income tax system[4] is very progressive and effective. Getting rid of that would be the wrong thing to do, FICA taxes are a bit regressive, but that can also be easily fixed by eliminating the Social Security wage base[5].

References:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_Unite...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax#United_States

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carried_interest#United_States

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_schedule_(federal_income_...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Wage_Base

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#135

Post by jondubois »

I agree with the characterization of investment bankers and hedge fund managers as 'gangsters'.

I'm tired of hearing these people rationalize their work as being 'to allocate capital efficiently' - Their real job description is 'to dilute real value and centralize capital'. These people don't create jobs; they transfer jobs from small businesses to big corporations.

Those big corporations gain market share not by offering a superior product for a lower price; they do so by manipulating the markets and using the media to project a false image of quality...

If you go to MacDonald's and get a burger, if you forget that you're eating a Big Mac for a second and try to think about it objectively; it's very poor quality; the meat actually tastes like wet cardboard and the bun is like 70% air!

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#136

Post by chadcmulligan »

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in the depression as a job creation scheme. Maybe this is the new status quo, there are still jobs that need skills and some are in shortage, though people with labour skills are in abundance - maybe use them instead of having people sit around while there's stuff to do but society can't put the two together.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#137

Post by angry-hacker »

module0000 wrote: post #57
jokoon wrote: post #5

There is a difference between a job you like, and a job you do because you believe "work sets you free" or because you believe work is a some sort of value or a necessary pain everybody has to take part in. I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thi…

> If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will Are you banking on the tax payers never reaching that mindset as well? Because it kind of breaks down if that happens.

What's wrong with taking the opportunity while it lasts? You can't really think of problems like that, it doesn't lead you anywhere. If there is a hole to exploit the system, it will get exploited. No matter by who.
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