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Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

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Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#131

Post by yoo1I »

tomchristie wrote: post #107
froh42 wrote: post #38

As I didn't update brew for a long time I did not have the analytics version. So I upgraded to see what happens. In fact it did NOT prompt me when enabling analytics, but it did display a notice (hidden in several hundred lines of output during brew upgrade): ------------------- + 5a9e19f...7f13b37 master -> origin/master (forced update) * [new tag] 0.1 -> 0.1 HEAD is now at 7f13b37 Merge pull request #1562 from wood…

> He might be a nice target if you want to raise a stink and litigate. * That Phone in your pocket? "No problem" * The browser you're using right now? "This is fine" * Your internet-enabled TV? "All good" * Open source project collecting usage metrics? "Woah, hold on there buddy" Get some perspective. They're completely transparent about which very limited usage metrics they use. You can inspect exactly which metrics…

You're pretending there is an inconsistency in their argument when there is none. Let me give you a slightly (ever so slightly) exaggerated explanation of why you're incorrect in your analogies.

* A phone is a communications device. We know it transmits information. Unwanted tracking that exceeds the metadata strictly necessary for the execution of it's purpose and usage of this metadata for any other purpose needs to be opt-in.

* The browser is a communications application. We know it transmits information. Unwanted tracking that exceeds the metadata strictly necessary for the execution of it's purpose and usage of this metadata for any other purpose needs to be opt-in.

* An internet-enabled TV. We know it transmits information. Unwanted tracking that exceeds the metadata strictly necessary for the execution of it's purpose and usage of this metadata for any other purpose needs to be opt-in.

* Open source project collecting usage metrics? Downloading software packaged generates metadata. We understand that, and use the software on that basis. Any usage of that metadata and tracking my usage habits of said Open Source project needs to be opt-in.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#132

Post by michaelt »

CJefferson wrote: post #7

I knew, and I was prompted. I can understand why this might upset people, but for me I hope it will make brew a better product. I'm sure we all know as developers how annoying it can be to not know the problems users have, and what they are using your software for -- that's why most websites have analytics. I'm hoping to add something similar to software I work on, with an opt-out of course. I believe it will help me…

People here are talking about opt out vs opt in but there's a third option: Forced choice. This is where you present the two options to the user (without either prechecked / default) and the user has to choose one or the other to continue.

This avoids both the problem that the user doesn't consent with opt-out, and the problem that nobody cares to opt-in. The disadvantage is it doesn't work with unattended upgrades.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#133

Post by OskarS »

mikemcquaid wrote: post #118
froh42 wrote: post #38

As I didn't update brew for a long time I did not have the analytics version. So I upgraded to see what happens. In fact it did NOT prompt me when enabling analytics, but it did display a notice (hidden in several hundred lines of output during brew upgrade): ------------------- + 5a9e19f...7f13b37 master -> origin/master (forced update) * [new tag] 0.1 -> 0.1 HEAD is now at 7f13b37 Merge pull request #1562 from wood…

> Looking at the website one of homebrew's developers (or at least the website developers) is based over here in Europe. He might be a nice target if you want to raise a stink and litigate. Homebrew lead maintainer here. We're chronically understaffed and underfunded. We have analytics so we can make Homebrew better by figuring out how to prioritise security, maintenance and bug fixes on packages based on how much th…

Hear, hear

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#134

Post by Semaphor »

wfunction wrote: post #110
blub wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US approach to privacy is "let the market sort it out". It has sorted it out by transforming the internet into a giant spying machine sucking up contacts, photos, documents, videos, metadata, what packages you use, when where and how you exercise, everything The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobbying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what…

> The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobyying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what personal information a company has on them, ask that it be corrected or deleted. This has resulted in companies that are more careful with data. More like, this has resulted in things like nonsensical "Cookie warnings" that only waste the user's time.

It has resulted in a lot of good things. Cookie consent is most certainly not one of them.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#135

Post by rocqua »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #26
andybak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Stealing' data? Is that like 'stealing' by downloading a movie?

"Exfiltrating" would be a better word here. (Also, downloading a movie is a different thing - there you're not stealing nor exfiltrating anything, you're downloading data as intended by uploader, who may or may not have the copyrights for that data.) (INB4, ripping a DVD and uploading it is not data theft. Exfiltrating a pre-release copy from movie company's servers would be data theft.)

The ripping would be the 'exfiltration' as would recording a movie in theatre or hacking servers.

The sharing or getting something from a shared thing would merely be copyright infringement.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#136

Post by pvinis »

blub wrote: post #99
pvinis wrote: post #19

Yes we know. brew tells you that. And you can disable it. Data is being sent to Google everytime you do almost anything in almost all websites, using the same technology. So what? Some of the times it's to make the product better, or better targeted. Some other times it's just for spying on the users. Let's stop complaining about stuff that someone does and tell you they do it. There are many more that do the same th…

The US approach to privacy is "let the market sort it out". It has sorted it out by transforming the internet into a giant spying machine sucking up contacts, photos, documents, videos, metadata, what packages you use, when where and how you exercise, everything The EU approach to privacy (eroded by lobbying and lack of control over US companies) is that citizens have a right over their information. They can ask what…

Do you use brew? Have you contributed code to it? Have you installed something using brew, before updating brew for a while?

For me, my answers are yes no yes. A while ago, you did that, and you get an old version of the thing you just installed. With analytics, they saw that many people forget to update before installing after a while, so they added an update step in that case.

I call that progress, no matter how small. I didn't change that and to you didn't change that. The brew devs changed that. Maybe they would have changed it anyway later.. Who knows. But the fact that brew because a tiny tiny bit better because of analytics, in part from me, makes me a happier user. Now I don't need to remember to update before installing.

Of course it's not the best way to "contribute", but it's something. Definitely better than "contributing" your data to companies, like you said.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#137

Post by hdra »

froh42 wrote: post #38

As I didn't update brew for a long time I did not have the analytics version. So I upgraded to see what happens. In fact it did NOT prompt me when enabling analytics, but it did display a notice (hidden in several hundred lines of output during brew upgrade): ------------------- + 5a9e19f...7f13b37 master -> origin/master (forced update) * [new tag] 0.1 -> 0.1 HEAD is now at 7f13b37 Merge pull request #1562 from wood…

>Looking at the website one of homebrew's developers (or at least the website developers) is based over here in Europe. He might be a nice target if you want to raise a stink and litigate

You're perfectly within your right to feel conned by the data collections. I myself opted-out after I saw the message when I installed home-brew few months ago and, yes, I am a bit bummed that I have to take these extra efforts to opt out.

But threatening to sue for a completely free software that people maintain voluntarily? You're not even just saying that there is a potential for litigation, but you actually said that because they're a "nice target"?? HN mods can ban me for all I care, but I have to say you're one entitled asshole, and this kind of behaviour is the reason of why so many open source project maintainer burnt out.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#138

Post by rocqua »

wingless wrote: post #98
pbiggar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the number of people who work for Google, and Google's internal culture of openness, I find it extremely unlikely that Google is violating its customers' privacy. That would almost certainly get whistleblown.

Like how the PRISM program got whistleblown by Googlers? Oh wait, that never happened.

Threat of jail / treason conviction is a lot stronger than the threat of being fired by google.

I can totally see someone caving for the one and not the other.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#139

Post by mikemcquaid »

froh42 wrote: post #129
mikemcquaid wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Looking at the website one of homebrew's developers (or at least the website developers) is based over here in Europe. He might be a nice target if you want to raise a stink and litigate. Homebrew lead maintainer here. We're chronically understaffed and underfunded. We have analytics so we can make Homebrew better by figuring out how to prioritise security, maintenance and bug fixes on packages based on how much th…

Mike, I'm just saying that you're putting yourself on risky ground, not that I want to do something personally. In fact I'd even consider keeping GA enabled IF BEING NOTIFIED. The current notification is the problem, as it is close to invisble. Hiding output in a long log message is a dark pattern, I think it did not happen out of spite (you just used your normal shell output mechanism to show that). However: Such a…

You were notified, I'm sorry if it was not as clear as it could have been. We're always open to PRs to improve the visibility.

That said, I still don't appreciate threats or ideas to sue me as an individual. That's a massively disproportionate threat to me and my family.

Re: Brew commands send data to Google Analytics

#140

Post by kuschku »

froh42 wrote: post #115
tomchristie wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He might be a nice target if you want to raise a stink and litigate. * That Phone in your pocket? "No problem" * The browser you're using right now? "This is fine" * Your internet-enabled TV? "All good" * Open source project collecting usage metrics? "Woah, hold on there buddy" Get some perspective. They're completely transparent about which very limited usage metrics they use. You can inspect exactly which metrics…

if you want to raise a stink If you have a judge who is not completly dumb he would laugh you off for such litigation. If you have a judge who still has his staff print out internet pages for him it might get compilicated for you as a contributor. Idiot judge already happened to me, that was an expensive lesson life taught me. So no, I wouldn't risk sticking my name on something like that. Because everybody else does…

> If you have a judge who is not completly dumb he would laugh you off for such litigation.

Why?

Under European law, you can only transmit such information or track it if you have an explicit opt-in to it.

I'd doubt you'd get laughed out of court, considering the Cookie law was written for exactly this case.

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