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Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

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Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#131
post #95

I think out of all the "news" media so far Wikileaks is probably the most trustworthy. I've seen people claim they altered the emails or Russians wrote the emails, I think they'd have to point to specific instances for me to see it. I don't remember a single instance of them altering an email. I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. How do we know these emails are interesting and us…

The e-mails don't have to be altered. Russians just have to make sure they get the data, filter out stuff they don't like leaving neutral and desired content and the publish the data in the right time accompanied by a specific media coverage so it gets noticed. This is information warfare. A statement that a body specifically not subject to any self-regulation mechanisms and unknown data sources (that has hurt people before, remember the Turkish leaks) is somehow more trustworthy than media, that has ages of ethical and regulatory history? Of course you have to think of what you were told, of course you need to balance your sources with al jazeera, bbc etc. But Wikileaks fits too snugly into both russian agenda and ideology (everybody is lying and our blatant fabrications ate therefore as much truth as anything) to ignore.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#132

"Some have accused us of being pawns of the Russian government, but this misrepresents our principles and basic operations. ...We prefer not to know who our sources are; we do not want to.." So they prefer to be unwitting pawns? Transparency is great, freedom of information is great, but is there some point at which you have to step back and acknowledge that you're being used by a foreign power? Doesn't that undermin…

There are two explanations for their seemingly biased reporting: either they had leaks from the Republican side and chose not to release them, or the only leaks they had were on the Democratic side. From the outside, it's hard to know which one is correct.

Perhaps what the world needs is multiple WikiLeaks-like organizations that don't have the same editorial slant as Wikileaks? That way leakers can leak their data in several places and it's more likely to be published. (One might even build an anonymous submission tool that makes the submitted data available to all such organizations at the same time.)

Of course, if the problem is simply that no one is bothering to attack the RNC, then no amount of additional organizations to publish the data would help. It might, though, lend some credibility to the claim that data isn't being withheld deliberately.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind explaining the logic?

All they'd need to do is leak a single email, or even a snippet of a single email that was in the relevant date range but not released, and assert that WL had suppressed it. FWIW we also saw HRC and her cronies claiming that the recently released emails were doctored. They made this claim straight-faced and it was cryptographically proven to be completely false. So claims about WL's motivations and actions have thus…

Their motivations are irrelevant. Proving politicians are hypocrites is easier than finding metaphors in the bible. Their releases have undeniably been assimilated by one candidate using WL's credibility and flavor of scandal. WL went along with it.

"Troves" don't have signatures. Omissions and context matter. See the ICIJ approach.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#134
post #130
post #95

I think out of all the "news" media so far Wikileaks is probably the most trustworthy. I've seen people claim they altered the emails or Russians wrote the emails, I think they'd have to point to specific instances for me to see it. I don't remember a single instance of them altering an email. I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. How do we know these emails are interesting and us…

The e-mails don't have to be altered. Russians just have to make sure they get the data, filter out stuff they don't like leaving neutral and desired content and the publish the data in the right time accompanied by a specific media coverage so it gets noticed. This is information warfare. A statement that a body specifically not subject to any self-regulation mechanisms and unknown data sources (that has hurt people…

Wikileaks may be following a Russian agenda (due to shared goals; enemy of my enemy is my friend), but what do you mean by "blatant fabrications"? Wikileaks hyperbolized the marketing about some of the emails, but never once fabricated anything that I'm aware of.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#135
post #130
post #95

I think out of all the "news" media so far Wikileaks is probably the most trustworthy. I've seen people claim they altered the emails or Russians wrote the emails, I think they'd have to point to specific instances for me to see it. I don't remember a single instance of them altering an email. I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. How do we know these emails are interesting and us…

The e-mails don't have to be altered. Russians just have to make sure they get the data, filter out stuff they don't like leaving neutral and desired content and the publish the data in the right time accompanied by a specific media coverage so it gets noticed. This is information warfare. A statement that a body specifically not subject to any self-regulation mechanisms and unknown data sources (that has hurt people…

> But Wikileaks fits too snugly into both russian agenda

Agree it does. And if I had to pick a country not to like (or rather I'd say a government) Russia would be it. My family has tangibly been hurt by them. And I'd like to blame them, but the whole "it is the Russians" excuse is a bit too much. This seems to be like a classical PR technique of deflection. And it was pushed too far by Hillary's campaign and the rest of the mass media. When they overemphasize something, it is probably a lie and I know to look the other way.

As for hacking the email server, I would say Russian did it, but probably any state actor which were moderately advanced probably got into it. If they knew the Secretary of State of the most powerful country in the world had a private server and didn't try to hack into it, whoever was doing "hacking" should have been fired probably.

> has ages of ethical and regulatory history?

Unfortunately how mass media has behaved, I put their ethical and trustworthiness below Wikileaks at this point.

> you need to balance your sources with al jazeera, bbc etc.

Yap I do that. I found in general, media is a bit more trustworthy if they don't have an inherent conflict of interest. For example Al Jazeera is not to be trusted with any news from ME or especially close to Qatar for example.

Who do you listen to? Is BBC a pretty good source?

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#136
post #95

I think out of all the "news" media so far Wikileaks is probably the most trustworthy. I've seen people claim they altered the emails or Russians wrote the emails, I think they'd have to point to specific instances for me to see it. I don't remember a single instance of them altering an email. I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. How do we know these emails are interesting and us…

> I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. The criticisms were generally of a different sort: editorializing in their selection of leaks. "selective omission", if you will. They have information about Trump but chose not to release it. According to Breitbart (so you know it's not from a "liberal media" source): http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/08/27/wikileaks-info-dona... > “We do…

[deleted]

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#137
While overall I agree that an organization like Wikileaks is necessary to hold institutions accountable, I find their actions during the last Presidential election questionable. They simply guy played by Russia. My biggest problem with their approach during the election is that they provided assymetric information to the public that heavily biased people's opinion. So DNC was working with Clinton campaign against Sanders, and I am pretty sure RNC was working against Trump as well. If there were some media collaboration on one side, I am confident this is a campaign norm and happened plenty on the other side. Especially when you got the Breitbart executive running the campaign. But by publishing one side of the story Wikileaks did a disservice to the Democracy that it longs to protect. Ideally, they should have hold on those emails until after the election or until there was comparable material available from the other side

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#138
post #95

I think out of all the "news" media so far Wikileaks is probably the most trustworthy. I've seen people claim they altered the emails or Russians wrote the emails, I think they'd have to point to specific instances for me to see it. I don't remember a single instance of them altering an email. I don't remember anyone credible refuting and saying they didn't write it. How do we know these emails are interesting and us…

It's easy to trust Wikileaks. The only standard they have to adhere to is to not invent, adulterate, or filter material. That's a pretty low standard. By contrast, professional journalists seek out and independently confirm leaks with other insiders. They associate, summarize, and contextualize. Wikileaks doesn't do this--they can't do this--because their sources are anonymous, and because Wikileaks has foresworn taking upon itself the responsibility and concomitant risk (of error, of bias) of doing those other things.

That means Wikileaks is in no better position than anyone else. Their value add, beyond serving as an initial depot for leaks, is thin. And that's fine. Similarly, there's little to criticize. (I've seen claims on HN that Assange rejected some purported Trump leaks, but I didn't check on that myself.)

I absolutely think Wikileaks is useful and essential. But if the outlet you trust the most is Wikileaks, you'll never really know or understanding anything. It's like saying the only source of information you can trust is the Internet. What does that even mean? How can you possibly think you can consume all of that data unassisted?

While you claim Wikileaks is the most trustworthy, I suspect that most of your opinions (whatever they are) were principally informed by other journalists reviewing, criticizing, and editorializing on what Wikileaks publishes. You're flying blind if you don't realize that.

For example, you claim that CNN is lying about the legality of possessing classified documents. How did you form that opinion? All on your own? Are you a lawyer specializing in the confluence of national security and free speech law?

The person spreading falsehood here is Sarah Hannon. She said,

  CNN has even suggested, wrongly, that readers may have legal
  troubles if they download documents from our site.
The reality--which you can confirm with a few moments of Googling--is that the government interprets the relevant statues such that if you hold a security clearance, then reading classified material without authorization, no matter where it came from, is considered illegal. You have an affirmative duty not to read it under their interpretation. That rule makes more sense than you'd think because you don't want people claiming that they "stumbled" onto classified information. Criminal law in the U.S. requires intention, and without the law requiring that you affirmatively avoid classified information, it's much easier to get out of a charge on a technicality. It also incentivizes people who do stumble onto classified information to notify authorities.

Furthermore, acquiring a security clearance is something you choose to do, not something forced upon you, which means typical Free Speech defenses are far less likely to help you. And that presumes that it is legal for everyone else to possess _any_ classified information that has been published via Wikileaks. (Which is, at best, highly debatable. And I definitely cannot see SCOTUS creating a blanket, bright-line rule like that without leaving a caveat for unforeseen circumstances.)

And on top of that, Hannon even acknowledges that CNN hedged with "may have legal troubles". Clearly they're less comfortable making such absolute claims than Hannon.

Now, we can agree or disagree with the law or the government's interpretation. I'm not about to defend any aspect of how the U.S. government classifies and manages information. (Which is to say, I think much of the system is ethically indefensible.) But facts are far tricker things than you'd think. Not acknowledging that is very dangerous.

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#139
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they should be embarrassed I think the people who wrote some of those horrible and immature emails should be embarrassed. Why must we respect authority figures when they (clearly) have not earned it. There were so many minor things in those emails that reveal just what kind of people seek power. Disgusting.

Yeah there was no big smoking gun, no lizard people, but there was a lot of shady deals. And most of all, I find interesting is, what wasn't there - not a lot of concern for regular people. Not a lot of "yeah we should figure out how to reach out to folks struggling with finding work, inner cities have more crime than expected we should find a way to help there.." But there was a lot of "let's take this angle, let's…

This is extremely naive. These guys are professional marketers and they are doing a job. When you build a product do you really think house best can I help my customer or how can optimize to get the best click or get the best conversion or get the best retention?

Re: Why the World Needs WikiLeaks

#140
post #139
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there was no big smoking gun, no lizard people, but there was a lot of shady deals. And most of all, I find interesting is, what wasn't there - not a lot of concern for regular people. Not a lot of "yeah we should figure out how to reach out to folks struggling with finding work, inner cities have more crime than expected we should find a way to help there.." But there was a lot of "let's take this angle, let's…

This is extremely naive. These guys are professional marketers and they are doing a job. When you build a product do you really think house best can I help my customer or how can optimize to get the best click or get the best conversion or get the best retention?

> When you build a product do you really think house best can I help my customer

This might be a surprise but yes I do! I worked for a tech company which survived and did well for 20+ some years and the reason is because they thought and cared what the customer wanted and always put them first, even at the detriment of yearly revenue.

It turns out we didn't need sales people, MBAs or much marketing either, customers were marking for us.

I am bit saddened that you think this is "this is extremely naive".

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