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Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

sandervenema.ch

131–140 of 350 posts

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Finally. Thank god.

turns out that implementing a new double ratchet implementation from scratch... and then adding in all the additional semantics required for Matrix's history-synced group chats etc... and then getting publicly audited... and getting it running on Web/iOS/Android... not to mention writing a formal spec for everything (both for the crypto, and the Matrix aspects of it), is a significant amount of time & work ;)

I'm not surprised, and I'm grateful for it. But it has been a long time coming, and it's been a major flaw in Matrix's offerings up to this point.

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#132
post #44
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't there an alternative? Signal uses the Axolotl protocol for encryption. There are already several XMPP clients that support the OMEMO protocol which is based on Axolotl ( https://conversations.im/omemo/ ). And for Matrix (a modern alternative to XMPP) there's Olm which is also based on Axolotl.

You mean the Signal Protocol. That's its name. Axolotl was a name for a major component of Signal Protocol. Moxie and Trevor Perrin designed the protocol for Signal, and it's under active development. They own the protocol, its direction, and its documentation. Other projects can adopt parts of the Signal Protocol, and doing that is certainly better than just making stuff up. But Signal owns the protocol, because the…

Yeah, just to clarify: Olm (matrix.org/git/olm) is an entirely independent implementation of the Double Ratchet algorithm (based on Trevor's original public domain spec sketch, which was originally called 'axolotl').

It's not connected to Signal or Signal Protocol or Open Whisper Systems, and subsequently we've added an entirely different new ratchet (Megolm - https://matrix.org/docs/spec/megolm.html) to handle Matrix's specific requirements for E2E.

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#133
post #50

Like a lot of crypto-puritanism it is rather mixed up. He says he recommended Signal because it was easy to use (more consumer friendly I guess) and secure, then says he wouldn't have gone in the direction of making it easier to use and criticises the things that make it user friendly, like using phone numbers instead of usernames. He says he thinks the protocol is secure, then says he doesn't want it to use GCM beca…

I agree overwhelmingly with what you wrote, except that I want to point out that this isn't "crypto-puritanism". It's just hipsterism. The author isn't a cryptographer, and if you asked a panel of 10 cryptographic engineers what messaging system they'd recommend, 9 of them would say "Signal". The 10th wants you to use something else because they're working on an attack for that "something else", and want their paper…

are you part of that knife fight? calling the article writer a hipster in this comment, and what seems to amount to "It's not wrong to criticize Signal. but don't because telegram is worse and more likely to win" in your other comment (since they arn't asking for libresignal to take over, just for a decent alternative to exist which currently probably does not)

It seems a really strong and a bit aggressive of an attitude to have against a person's opinions

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#134
post #12
post #4

I am also very unhappy with the direction Signal has gone, but there's currently no alternative. I'd be interested in contributing to work attempting to replicate it, though.

I have some friends in an encrypted riot room right now. The olm could use a real good audit, but otherwise it is working right now. Federation is working, bridges are working, voice and video are working, it has Android and iOS clients. The only problem is the encryption doesn't apply to the voice / video or shared files yet, but they have made huge progress this last year from basically nothing so far.

the Olm audit is done; we're hoping to publish it week of Nov 14 (alongside iOS & Android support).

Encrypted attachments was PRed this week: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk/pull/533 (for the web; mobile will follow shortly)

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix isn't tied to HTTP - it's just the baseline protocol. The idea is for people to propose whatever custom efficient transports they like, maintaining HTTP as the lowest common denominator. For instance https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-websockets-proxy is such a WebSocket proposal.

Sure, and that's better, I agree, but XMPP also works the same way, but it's base protocol is much lower layer (a TCP connection instead of a higher layer protocol like HTTP). The point is that the default (which is always what most people will stick with), is too cumbersome and inefficient for realtime applications.

Agreed that XMPP is much lighter in terms of server processing than Matrix (they are doing entirely different things, after all). In terms of transport, yes: Matrix's default HTTP/1+JSON transport is heavier than baseline XMPP.

I haven't checked but my hunch would be that HTTP/2+JSON would be very similar to typical XMPP in terms of bandwidth, if not better, and obviously requires no spec changes; just an HTTP/2 capable client & server/LB.

In terms of what transport people use: well, I assume end-users will use whatever the best performing clients implement. Riot is the flagship client and will obviously do better than HTTP+JSON; meanwhile we've had a lot of pressure from Weechat to start using a better transport (e.g. websockets) for them (https://riot.im/app/#/room/#matrix:matrix.org/$1477998960439... meanwhile Ralith (the author of the NaChat Qt matrix client) has been working himself on a capnproto transport due to wanting something faster & better than the baseline.

So we're not particularly worried that most people will stick with the baseline for daily usage. Instead, it'll act as a really nice and easy on-ramp for new developers, debugging/deving on the API, etc. Anyone serious will end up using a better transport.

Finally: it's worth noting that adding E2E by default into Matrix increases the complexity of clients enormously - so we expect the plain `curl -XPUT /_matrix/client/r0/rooms/.../m.room.message --data { "body": "hello world" }` style APIs to increasingly be just for experimentation, initial dev and prototyping. As soon as you want to start talking E2E folks will reach for a full client SDK, at which point they will get access to both E2E and whatever weird & wonderful transports that SDK happens to provide. So, again, the majority of users won't be on plain ol' HTTP.

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tox is a fully distributed (not federated) p2p system Ah, see, you lost me there already. I'm sure it's clever and well made and all the rest of it, but fully distributed systems either almost never work, are very difficult to get setup and use properly, or end up just not being fully distributed systems (eg. early Skype and it's "supernodes" or whatever it called them, aka "servers", or Tor [which I love] and it's…

Tox has DHT bootstrap nodes, but they aren't hardcoded.

Who bootstraps the bootstrap nodes?

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#139

Like a lot of crypto-puritanism it is rather mixed up. He says he recommended Signal because it was easy to use (more consumer friendly I guess) and secure, then says he wouldn't have gone in the direction of making it easier to use and criticises the things that make it user friendly, like using phone numbers instead of usernames. He says he thinks the protocol is secure, then says he doesn't want it to use GCM beca…

I'm not a cryptographer. I .. am reasonably sure that no one would take me for a hipster. But two issues - or call it 'differences in opinion' - in that article are relevant for me: The inability to use the service without a mobile number and federation. I understand the rationale behind the former ("It's easier"), but I don't understand why it is mandatory. I could've been 1283783127356128531312 on Signal and option…

I agree about the user name vs phone number. Federation issue was addressed here[1] for what it's worth.

[1] https://whispersystems.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/

Re: Why I won't recommend Signal anymore

#140
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree overwhelmingly with what you wrote, except that I want to point out that this isn't "crypto-puritanism". It's just hipsterism. The author isn't a cryptographer, and if you asked a panel of 10 cryptographic engineers what messaging system they'd recommend, 9 of them would say "Signal". The 10th wants you to use something else because they're working on an attack for that "something else", and want their paper…

are you part of that knife fight? calling the article writer a hipster in this comment, and what seems to amount to "It's not wrong to criticize Signal. but don't because telegram is worse and more likely to win" in your other comment (since they arn't asking for libresignal to take over, just for a decent alternative to exist which currently probably does not) It seems a really strong and a bit aggressive of an atti…

No, because I'm not affiliated with any messaging applications. Nor, by the way, am I saying that the author is --- I don't know them. I'm saying it's a good thing to know about the conversation.

Rereading my post here, I can see why a reader would infer from it the idea that the author might be a sockpuppet. I don't believe that! I was thinking more about the kinds of comments on message boards that say Signal is a "honey pot". I could have written that more carefully, so, sorry about that.

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