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Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

arstechnica.com

131–140 of 213 posts

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#131

You can't do what you want, with a car you buy - even though this does not mean that it will be a lot cheaper :/ I'm more than willing to agree to this concept, if for example, Tesla sends me a new top of the line model 3/s/x every year for around 5k-ish/yr - At that price point, I feel that they can tell me what I can / can't do with "their" car. However, now, they expect people to pay the full price of the car (any…

> In a few decades, you'd not really own anything - the house you live in [...] Just to clarify, in the true meaning of the word "own", you never owned your house, and that goes to at least post WW2 times. If you believe you own your house simply because its paid off, then try not to pay property tax imposed on you by the county you live in. But don't be surprised if one year later Sheriff shows up at your "own" hous…

Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title - there are places in the US where this does exist.

(In contrast to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple )

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and slightly point out a difference: John Deere tells you what you can't do to your tractor; Tesla Motors tells you what you can't do with your car, which is way worse as the forbidden use is not even diverting the primary use of the car in a way that would cause damages they wouldn't be willing to fix or something. Basically, it's a car manufacturer telling you you can't drive certain people for a certain re…

No, it's a car manufacturer telling you that they do not want you handing over control of a vehicle to ridesharing programs that they cannot be sure are compatible with their self-driving systems. Ridesharing programs will literally be giving control inputs to the car, and Tesla has determined that those inputs should come either from licensed drivers or from their own ridesharing program. Because they're not dumb an…

Do you actually know something or is it just speculation?

It looks like they are attempting to prohibit driving people for money, not connecting the car to unauthorized software. "Revenue purposes" is the exact words they used.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#133

What will Tesla do if you do it anyway? Disable your $100k car? Does that hold up in court? What did you buy for $100k?

The license to drive a Tesla subject to the terms and conditions.

So you still own the car but won't be licensed to drive it?

And people are saying "Yeah, sounds reasonable!" in this thread? Okay...

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. If someone modifies their Tesla to accept input from Uber, and Tesla does nothing to stop them, and it causes a crash or other problems, then there'll be headlines ("Tesla self-driving car stops in middle of highway!"), technology-ignorant bureaucrats will clamp down on s…

> But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This rec…

> Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This recent attitude of "people won't understand, therefore corporations have to be paternalistic" is patronizing and factually incorrect. People do actually understand.

I think you're really overestimating both the level of technical comprehension generally, and people's attitude towards "due diligence". People understand what a house is and what wires are. They are not, as of yet, that clear on how neural nets, sensor systems, and dynamically updated software come together to make a self-driving vehicle. If modders cause problems, especially with something as mobile and potentially destructive as a car, the general reaction could easily be "this is mostly the fault of the self-driving Tesla, and the fact that they didn't do due diligence in preventing misuse." It is not a very reasonable reaction, but it is a likely one - and one that could have serious consequences for Tesla as a company.

>The worst outcome is that technology-ignorant bureaucrats require companies to clamp down on modding. But having companies do that to begin with is no improvement.

It's not the same. A bureaucrat's rules are mandatory for everybody. Tesla has competitors who may choose a different route.

> The basis of this seems to be the conceit that manufacturers can actually control their products after they've been sold. It can be true for a time, in the sense that it takes people that long to figure out how to break back into the things they own, but it happens. If you can jailbreak an iPhone then you can jailbreak your car.

A self-driving Tesla is not an iPhone, because an iPhone is unlikely to run somebody over or block a freeway. Risks are relevant. Self-driving systems are also dynamically updated and dependent on networked information. It already is a service, not a fixed product. You don't own a self-driving system (at least Tesla's idea of it) any more than you own an Amazon Web Services server rack by having something hosted on it.

> Which means that we have a choice. The first option [....] which makes it much more likely that people will die. What does that do for your brand?

Maybe in the future, when such things are more familiar, Tesla will feel confident enough to open their products up to modders. But right now? When even the idea of self-driving cars is a challenging sell, and they're being criticized for it not being secure and consistent enough? No, not now.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#135
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a car manufacturer telling you that they do not want you handing over control of a vehicle to ridesharing programs that they cannot be sure are compatible with their self-driving systems. Ridesharing programs will literally be giving control inputs to the car, and Tesla has determined that those inputs should come either from licensed drivers or from their own ridesharing program. Because they're not dumb an…

Do you actually know something or is it just speculation? It looks like they are attempting to prohibit driving people for money, not connecting the car to unauthorized software. "Revenue purposes" is the exact words they used.

It is what they appear to be referring to, given the fact that they are saying "using a self-driving Tesla...for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network". So you can drive people for money, or you can let it self-drive on the Tesla Network, but it can't connect to other, non-Tesla-Network software. Now, it could, maybe, also mean that a self-driving Tesla would be prohibited from being leased out for a night without using software to mediate the transaction. But I think this pretty clearly refers to hooking up a self-driving Tesla to an Uber or Lyft style app.

Edit: and they've certainly seen the trouble that Uber and Lyft have gotten into insurance-wise with regards to carrying passengers as a "public accomodation". It's quite possible that they want to handle this centrally for insurance purposes. Which are bound to be a challenge with regards to self-driving cars.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm voting that I don't mind, and buying at least two Model 3s when they're in full production. I support Tesla's decision.

Which is it, that you "don't mind", or that you "support" it? If you support it, why? Otherwise, your comment adds no more substance than me saying "I'm against this." and offering no further explanation.

I support Tesla restricting the benefits to their own ridesharing network. Why should Uber or Lyft profit by putting Tesla software into service? I don't just mind, I fully support it, and depending on the breakeven point, I'll buy several Teslas and put them in service as long as there's just a tiny bit of profit after Tesla's cut.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. If someone modifies their Tesla to accept input from Uber, and Tesla does nothing to stop them, and it causes a crash or other problems, then there'll be headlines ("Tesla self-driving car stops in middle of highway!"), technology-ignorant bureaucrats will clamp down on s…

> But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. Why not? It flies just fine now with physical goods. If someone hand-builds their own bicycle wheel, and installs it on their bicycle, and then the wheel breaks and they crash... no one is blaming the bike manufacturer. No one is saying "that bike company should have we…

See my answer to AnthonyMouse below for my thoughts on this.

I'm not saying that it's ideal for Tesla to lock down the system like this. I'm saying that, given the risks they face, in terms of legislation, regulation and public opinion, their approach is very understandable.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#138
As the article notes, this isn't about ride-sharing as we know it. It's about having your car autonomously drive somebody else around without you. You can use your Tesla while driving for Uber or Lyft — but if you're going to have the car autonomously drive people around for fares, Tesla requires that you put it on their network. It's still lame, but it's not the "You can't drive for Uber in a Tesla" situation that a lot of people seem to be interpreting it as.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But saying "Okay, but we're not responsible for damages" will not fly with regulators, legislators, public opinion or the integrity of their brand. Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This rec…

> Why not? It's how everything else works. If you buy a house and then install your own electrical wiring which causes your house to burn down, you have no claim against the construction company and nobody blames them for it because it was your fault, not theirs. This recent attitude of "people won't understand, therefore corporations have to be paternalistic" is patronizing and factually incorrect. People do actuall…

> They are not, as of yet, that clear on how neural nets, sensor systems, and dynamically updated software come together to make a self-driving vehicle.

They don't have to be, for the same reason that you don't have to understand Maxwell's equations to understand that it's possible to cause a fire with bad wiring. The concept of "the user modifications caused the problem" is not beyond the public understanding. Anyone who cares about more details than that can take the time to understand them but those are not the people you have to worry about.

> It's not the same. A bureaucrat's rules are mandatory for everybody. Tesla has competitors who may choose a different route.

Your arguments either apply or they don't. Their competitors are not in a different situation and there are not very many of them. They'll likely all make the same choice.

> A self-driving Tesla is not an iPhone, because an iPhone is unlikely to run somebody over or block a freeway. Risks are relevant.

That's the point. You don't want a black box in control of life or death situations. You want something the user can understand when they're capable of it, so that the 2% of users who are can identify and fix problems that will affect the other 98% before it turns into deaths and liability.

Opening up the car could reduce their liability, because it gives them somewhere else to point the finger sometimes, and a large population of people willing to find and fix problems. If they control the car entirely then all the liability is always on them and no one can help them when they make a mistake.

> Maybe in the future, when such things are more familiar, Tesla will feel confident enough to open their products up to modders. But right now? When even the idea of self-driving cars is a challenging sell, and they're being criticized for it not being secure and consistent enough? No, not now.

Right now is when the precedent and expectations are being set.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is it, that you "don't mind", or that you "support" it? If you support it, why? Otherwise, your comment adds no more substance than me saying "I'm against this." and offering no further explanation.

I support Tesla restricting the benefits to their own ridesharing network. Why should Uber or Lyft profit by putting Tesla software into service? I don't just mind, I fully support it, and depending on the breakeven point, I'll buy several Teslas and put them in service as long as there's just a tiny bit of profit after Tesla's cut.

Software that vehicle purchasers have licensed for use in a vehicle that they ostensibly own.

This is just the Apple iOS walled garden again.

"If you want to make money using our car, we get a cut".

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