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Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

aeon.co

131–140 of 226 posts

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#131
> What were those problems? A big one was the size of stars in the Copernican universe. Copernicus proposed that certain oddities observed in the movements of planets through the constellations were due to the fact that Earth itself was moving. Stars show no such oddities, so Copernicus had to theorise that, rather than being just beyond the planets as astronomers had traditionally supposed, stars were so incredibly distant that Earth’s motion was insignificant by comparison. But seen from Earth, stars appear as dots of certain sizes or magnitudes. The only way stars could be so incredibly distant and have such sizes was if they were all incredibly huge, every last one dwarfing the Sun. Tycho Brahe, the most prominent astronomer of the era and a favourite of the Establishment, thought this was absurd, while Peter Crüger, a leading Polish mathematician, wondered how the Copernican system could ever survive in the face of the star-size problem.

This is a fascinating observation, and given the information they had at the time, I can see where Locher is coming from. Given two possibilities, one involving absolutely enormous stars and one involving a earth that circled the sun, both extraordinary claims, and no sure way (yet) to evaluate which was true, it's human that he supported the more comfortable hypothesis, and he wasn't provably wrong given the information they had.

> That is unfortunate for science, because today the opponents of science make use of that caricature. Those who insist that the Apollo missions were faked, that vaccines are harmful, or even that the world is flat – whose voices are now loud enough for the ‘War on Science’ to be a National Geographic cover story and for the astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson to address even their most bizarre claims – do not reject the scientific process per se. Rather, they wrap themselves in the mantle of Galileo, standing (supposedly) against a (supposedly) corrupted science produced by the ‘Scientific Establishment’.

The problem with this is that it conflates the public social debate with an internal scientific debate. Galileo vs. Pope Paul V is not the same debate as Galileo vs. Locher. The former is a debate driven by social needs that tries to drive opinion starting from what the pope wanted rather than observation (which is in fact a rejection of scientific process). The latter is two competing scientific hypotheses.

Likewise, picking one of the example debates (do vaccines cause autism?) there are two possible debates. The public debate is driven by social needs--mostly people trying to find meaning in the suffering caused by their child's autism, and people trying to take advantage of that need. This is absolutely a rejection of scientific process: scientific process attempts to explain phenomena, not find explanations that make people feel better. The internal scientific debate is largely not a debate, because the evidence that vaccines don't cause autism is, at this point, so overwhelming.

"Wrapping oneself in the mantle of Galileo" IS inherently an unscientific position: being pro- or anti-establishment is irrelevant to scientific process. The fact that Galileo happened to be anti-establishment at the time is irrelevant to the fact that ultimately his hypotheses were proven correct.

The real problem here is that a large part of the scientific community doesn't recognize that the social debate and the scientific debate are two different debates. Scientific evidence which is persuasive in a scientific context (studies have shown no correlation between vaccines and autism) does not persuade everyone in a public social context. Emotional approaches are also necessary (would you rather your child died of whooping cough? Or as one person with autism said, "It's painful that some people would rather have a dead child than a child like me.").

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most simply, the entire solar system revolves around the sun and not the earth.

Isn't that simply begging the question though? If you adopt a geocentric reference frame, then the Sun appears to rotate around the Earth, and all the other planets also appear to follow epicyclic paths around the Earth. You can predict the motions of every planet and star equally well, the equations are just different. So again, why is one more 'correct' than the other, besides calculational simplicity?

I'll admit I'm way out of my depth here! But wouldn't the fact the planets experience orbital decay that ultimately cause them to be pulled into the star they are orbiting, mean that heliocentric is "more correct" when discussing a planet's relation to a star?

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#133

Stupid question: given General Relativity, and in particular that all reference frames are equally valid , including rotating and accelerating ones, in what sense is heliocentrism more 'true' than geocentrism? E.g. you can pick a geocentric reference frame and all the math works out (albeit you'd need to define large fictitious forces, etc., but again, they are only 'fictitious' from the perspective of a different re…

I think the answer is precisely the realization that heliocentrism is a convenient framework for specifying the correct relationships. If one formulated their geocentrism-with-epicycles model to be precisely equivalent to heliocentrism in all physically observable details, just with Earth as the origin to their coordinate system, and acknowledged this equivalence, then that would be perfectly correct as well, albeit unduly cumbersomely framed. But the useful thing is that insight, that what happens is equivalent to the clean heliocentric model, whatever coordinates you might prefer to think of it in terms of.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#134
post #94

Of course there was scientific opposition to Galileo. Scientific ideas get hammered out through debate and disagreement. New ideas in science often take decades or even centuries to fully develop and reach broad acceptance. That is why it is important that new ideas can be discussed freely, which wasn't the case in Galileo's time.

They are now, but the uninformed reader can't assume that that's static throughout history. There will have been some point where that became fully true, some point where it wasn't, and some continuous function of time defining the extent to which that's true in between. Can you define any of the latter two things on the list?

> They are now, but the uninformed reader can't assume that that's static throughout history.

Scientific ideas are not discussed freely. They are driven by funding, which is disproportionally awarded to novel results. Non-novel results or failures to reproduce are overly ignored and under-funded.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most simply, the entire solar system revolves around the sun and not the earth.

Isn't that simply begging the question though? If you adopt a geocentric reference frame, then the Sun appears to rotate around the Earth, and all the other planets also appear to follow epicyclic paths around the Earth. You can predict the motions of every planet and star equally well, the equations are just different. So again, why is one more 'correct' than the other, besides calculational simplicity?

Geocentrism and Heliocentrism are not just calculation frameworks for making observations of the sky. They are also an attempt to create a model of the fundamental rules that govern the heavens, and then to create observable predictions based on those rules.

Heliocentrism is the better model of the two, because the paths of the planets are dominated by force of gravitational attraction to the sun. This force is what you model, regardless of your frame of reference. You can use this model to create observational predictions for any point in the solar system, but the forces that your modeling are essentially the heliocentric ones.

But to your larger point: In my grade-school science class, we were all taught that heliocentrism was itself supplanted by the discovery that the sun is rotating around the galaxy, and that modern cosmology doesn't center around anything at all. Heliocentrism is still more accurate than the geocentrism that it replaces, but is still regarded as a stepping-stone to modern theories.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aristotle won in the west. In Eastern Christendom, Plato won.

In the pre-Crusades 'dark ages', Europeans were by-and-large ignorant of Aristotle. Christianity was popular, and the philosophic framework was predominantly Neo-Platonic. Fortunately, Aristotle's work was preserved and commented upon by Islamic scholars. Averroes and Avicenna are two important Islamic scholars who commented on Aristotle. After the Crusades, this was reintroduced to the West. As Aristotelianism was r…

The legend of early Islamic scholars "preserving human knowledge through the dark ages" is extremely overdone.

Eastern Christendom fleeing the encroachment of Islamic invaders (which is largely what reintroduced Aristotle to the West, not Islam) had grappled with the conflict between Platonic and Aristotelian theological influences for centuries prior to the Crusades. The dispute between Gregory Palamas and Barlaam of Seminara is the culmination of that conflict. In fact, there arguably wouldn't have even been Crusades if Islamic armies hadn't been actively assaulting Byzantium for centuries.

I think it's disingenuous to say that Aquinas resolved anything. He played a role in moving the West towards Aristotle, but that was not exactly an advancement. It'd been dealt with before.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#137

Stupid question: given General Relativity, and in particular that all reference frames are equally valid , including rotating and accelerating ones, in what sense is heliocentrism more 'true' than geocentrism? E.g. you can pick a geocentric reference frame and all the math works out (albeit you'd need to define large fictitious forces, etc., but again, they are only 'fictitious' from the perspective of a different re…

Newtonian physics allows different frames of reference. Non inertial frames of reference need pseudo-forces. Einstein's relativity deals with non absolute space and time, that is, time speeds up or slows down depending on your 'frame of reference', the only thing remaining constant is the speed of light in a vaccum.

The choice isn't purely one of convenience because assuming 'heliocentrism' allows for a more elegant and universal set of equations to explain everything, from quarks to galaxies.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most simply, the entire solar system revolves around the sun and not the earth.

Isn't that simply begging the question though? If you adopt a geocentric reference frame, then the Sun appears to rotate around the Earth, and all the other planets also appear to follow epicyclic paths around the Earth. You can predict the motions of every planet and star equally well, the equations are just different. So again, why is one more 'correct' than the other, besides calculational simplicity?

I've always thought of the difference between geocentric and heliocentric to be an ego thing. Setting Earth as the center of the Universe works great, for everyone on Earth. It enforces the idea that Earth, and through that, Humans, are so important that the Universe is really centered on the Earth.

Maybe this is the case, maybe its not. To assume that the Earth is the center because of us is pretty egocentric.

Heliocentric places it in a more objective way, I guess? Changes the reference point to be consistent with the known laws/theory/whatever of gravity.

It could also be a scaling thing as well. Applying the equations to planets while setting a reference point based on our sun would provide equations that are more easily adaptable to other galaxies or solar systems that also have planets rotating around the sun. Sure, we could try and create formulas that describe the motion of other galaxies in reference to the Earth, but that would fall apart if the Earth stopped existing.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#139
post #86
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then the definition of the surface is different than the definition of the surface of, say, the Earth, so I'm not sure what "outside" the Sun means precisely.

The sun is roughly a sphere of a fixed size. What is there not to understand ?

I believe he's referring to the "fixed size" part of it, really only an argument a true pedant would make.

Re: Opposition to Galileo was scientific, not just religious

#140
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The church thinkers actually believed what was in the Bible: Augustine, Saint Basil, St. Thomas Aquinas. And the scriptures were made by the people who understood very little about the world, compared to what the current science knows. Therefore the creation is described using the concepts that we today know for sure don't exist. Specifically, in the creation myth: "And God made the firmament, and divided the wat…

You are a little too quick to paint an almost caricatural image there, perhaps informed by more recent religious developments, such as the literalist interpretations (mostly, but not exclusively, an american phenomenon). The reality is that the people who shaped the debates within the Catholic church back then tended to be well educated, and possessing all the attributes of one raising through a hierarchy - above ave…

> Before telescopes, Plato and Aristotle were state of the art knowledge in cosmology

No, they were not. They were just popular but not state of the art, as neither from them actually preformed astronomical observations or did the calculations. There are people before and after these two who did much more. Because they actually did some real science.

Aristarchus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Sizes_and_Distances_(Ar...

"This work calculates the sizes of the Sun and Moon, as well as their distances from the Earth in terms of Earth's radius."

Eratosthenes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

"Repeating Eratosthenes' calculation with more accurate data, the result is 40,074 km, which is 66 km different (0.16%) from the currently accepted polar circumference of the Earth."

Aristarchus of Samos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos

"presented the first known model that placed the Sun at the center of the known universe with the Earth revolving around it"

Archimedes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sand_Reckoner

"Estimation of the size of the universe

Archimedes then estimated an upper bound for the number of grains of sand required to fill the Universe. To do this, he used the heliocentric model of Aristarchus of Samos."

Everything before that year that that carpenter was born, and before his followers continued to depend on older or plainly less informed texts.

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