You also have to keep in mind a few things: 1 - I've never referred to myself as an "engineer" since I don't see myself as one, nor do I have an engineering degree. This includes the fact I do not have a four year CS degree either. 2 - Front end development has now split. Being a web "designer" means you know HTML5, CSS3 which includes LESS, SASS, PostCSS and other CSS pre-procssors 3 - Being a web "developer" means…
How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
131–140 of 198 posts
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#132It continually shocks me how much whining developers do about sometimes having to learn new things. The requirements for continued education are shockingly low (read: non-existent) in our industry, compared to other, similar intellectual/white collar industries - doctors in California are legally required to do 50 hours of CME/2 years, lawyers in California are legally required to do 25 hours of CLE/3 years, and thos…
Learning in the dev world consists of aimlessly screwing around with an undocumented, unsupported, glitchy web/server stack for many many hours unpaid after you've already spent 40 hours that week putting bread on the table.
The whining has less to do with the "learning" and more to do with the yak-shaving part of it torturing us endlessly in the off-hours. And, unlike in medicine and law, there is precious little professionally-written, detailed, helpful literature to help us along the way. There's just "quick install" and then a command/api reference. That is... not up to the level at which medicine and law have their industry practices & standards documented.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
The toolset itself has the weirdest gaps. You can get to 80-90% of a website design really quickly with the standard angular+bootstrap or whatever. But when a client wants it to do "Feature X" that is in one of the gaps then you're stuck spending hours trying to either hammer the problem into one of the frameworks or roll your own solution. And it's very hard to explain how "Feature X" took nearly half the time of st…
I don't think that it's fair to blame the frameworks. You should see it the other way 'round: They save you 80% of your time. The 80/20 rule is real ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle ), 20% of the whole work needs 80% of your time. If you have problems explaining why features need their time, it's not about your frameworks, it's about explaining the clients in all honesty what happens. Or, if you want…
In other words, all of the time saved to get to 80% is lost, and then some, because the framework can't do what my project needs.
I've seen this time and time again, with every framework I have ever used.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#134This is pretty much why I don't do front-end. I'm fully capable of it, but I just don't like keeping up with this flavor-of-the-week. It just doesn't feel like programming to me, or at least not the programming I enjoy. Strangely, I see so many new developers rushing toward the front-end, which seems much more complicated in many ways than just building solid web API services, analyzing data, etc.
There is a money issue. If you do keep up, you'll get amazing job offers. If you manage to really be on the edge, you can give talks as well, expose yourself as a consultant. That's much easier in JS than with Ruby, Python or whatever else.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think that it's fair to blame the frameworks. You should see it the other way 'round: They save you 80% of your time. The 80/20 rule is real ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle ), 20% of the whole work needs 80% of your time. If you have problems explaining why features need their time, it's not about your frameworks, it's about explaining the clients in all honesty what happens. Or, if you want…
I have to disagree. In my experience, the frameworks get me to 80% completion but I'm not spending the next 20% on achieving completion. I'm spending orders of magnitude more than that fighting the framework, trying to make it function the way my product needs to function. In other words, all of the time saved to get to 80% is lost, and then some, because the framework can't do what my project needs. I've seen this t…
But I've never experienced this problem on projects where I'm able to choose my tools. I use Django and Vue.js with webpack and I can estimate the time constraints for each feature accurately using that stack which is most important for me.
Maybe you've used too opinionated frameworks in the past. If that is the case, loosely coupled frameworks like ampersand.js or very flexible solutions like Vue.js will be a pleasure for you.
In regards to the Pareto Principle: The 80/20 rule means that you need 80% of your time to finish those 20% outside the scope of your framework, not 20%, so your observation fits with this.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#136jQuery had the DOM covered and is in fact now redundant itself and could be managed with a much, much lighter lib that spends a lot less time normalizing assuming you're dropping support for browsers even Microsoft no longer covers.
LESS and SASS were good for vars and should have stopped there. Standard browser support is finally in the works for that. But you certainly don't need both and for FFS you're just making an unmaintainable styling mess using all of the other features, especially (noob, please), nesting which needlessly adds to selector count like nobody's business.
We do NOT need to ASP/JSPify the DOM. Keeping content/structure code separated from the behavior code was the reason proper front end devs were running circles around Java/ASP.net devs. What the fucking fuck is the point of adding your own custom tags to HTML, which already had a perfectly serviceable approach to binding behavior to it? Or creating an XML-like syntax you mix/match directly with your JS?
Silicon valley noobs, please. I had lazy loading scrollable tables that could handle 50,000+ lines of data back when Google Docs was choking on 2,800. This shit is not hard. Stop wining and spend the time you apply to learning frameworks with next to no core technology understanding to actually learning the technology you have before you start adding pointless layers that solve nothing on top of what's already there and you'll be shocked at how not-hard it can really be.
Or let's not. Let's load a massive freaking ridiculous CSS and JS library by the Twitter devs, because, yes, surely they know through their work with a site that essentially boils down to a single text area, a great deal about handling complex layout and UI concerns.
AMD for a web app? Okay, I can see it, certainly for non-trivial SPAs , which NOT EVERY SITE NEEDS TO BE. But first, how complicated is this web app? If not-very, why were people struggling with linking scripts in the right order? Why did they need to link so many damn things to get the job done in the first place?
And FFS, it's just "data-binding." Calling it "Two-way" is redundant and makes you sound like a jackass who doesn't know what the fuck is actually happening. And it's just a pattern. And not a very hard one to implement.
MVC and MV? are great. Really, whatever the fuck keeps data separated from an app layer from your DOM-handling is fantastic. Frameworks that make it easy to follow such patterns in a way that all developers can become familiar with are great too. But sweet JavaScript Jesus why won't they just stop there?
We used to laugh at Java developers. What the fuck are we doing to ourselves? Why haven't I gotten an honest to god core web technology or native JavaScript question at an interview in like 3 years? We have indeed, ruined JavaScript.
Thanks a lot assholes.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#137> Oh, like Angular!
IMHO if you know about those you pretty much most of the terminology the "js guy" is using, personally speaking i know Angular haven't used yet bower in any project.
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#138Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#139You also have to keep in mind a few things: 1 - I've never referred to myself as an "engineer" since I don't see myself as one, nor do I have an engineering degree. This includes the fact I do not have a four year CS degree either. 2 - Front end development has now split. Being a web "designer" means you know HTML5, CSS3 which includes LESS, SASS, PostCSS and other CSS pre-procssors 3 - Being a web "developer" means…
Re: How it feels to learn JavaScript in 2016
#140I guess I'm behind the times in that I still use jQuery. Is it really worthwhile to go through everything described in this article to create a simple filterable table?