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Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

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Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#131
post #114

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

In the US, I can sue you just for making this hacker news comment. Doesn't mean I'll make it past the first hearing.

That lawsuit would be in a civil court, with civil lawyers and actual judges. Not a room full of round-robin corporate laywers.

My comment was not about whether it would be successful. My question was whether it provided the means to initiate a lawsuit.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#132

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

Your question is somewhat tautological: ISDS provisions typically define how investor suits work, so of course investors can sue. That does not mean an investor has any chance of winning in this instance under a hypothetical TTIP suit. TTIP includes a provision protecting regulations enacted for public good.

Sounds like a luxury not granted to, for instance, Central America under CAFTA.

Edit: Fixed typo.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#133

This is a very nice move to see. Other people have discussed washing machines below, but there's even more to say on them. Washing machines used to have long warranty periods. Nowadays they tend to be sold with a 2 year warranty, which I believe in the EU is the required minimum. And these manufacturers (Bosch, for example) even have the gall to claim that their products are high quality and that this warranty period…

While in a rental between moves I bought a very cheap ($50), used Maytag. Made in the USA, just over 20 years ago. That thing was built like a tank. They lady who sold it had raised 8 kids. This was her first and only washer to date and it never needed a repair - or so I was told. She replaced it because her adult kids bought her a fancy new LG washer for her birthday. After hauling this tank to my apartment and trying it out - it worked great! Much better than our Bosch front load that we sold before moving. It worked so good I was tempted to take it on the next leg of our move. I give it 2 years before that lady would pay to get her old washer back. In about that long I'll wish I had brought it with me.

I'm sick of disposable products. I have a small collection of "broken" things that I don't have time to get to. If they were built with repair in mind I think they'd be fixed by now, but I'm not sure that laws will get us there. One can hope.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#134
post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

The idea is great. The problems will be with the implementation, how it will change incentives, any loopholes introduced, cost of enforcement and unintended consequences. What exactly is a repair? Are parts covered, or only labour? Think ship of Theseus. Is an upgrade a repair, can I put a better compressor, rather than like-for-like in my refrigerator when it's failed? Can I have my TV repaired by replacing all the…

A alternative approach could be taxing garbage. Perhaps inevitable once sensors become pervasive and cheap enough. Too some extent this is already done and enforced for disposing of blatantly dangerous things. In some cases you could end up in prison in addition to fines, if caught. The more subtle things that add up to a big problem have been given a lot of leeway.

Right now it is profitable for many parties to extract non-renewable resources, assemble them in to something that has a short life cycle, and be sold to consumers who would rather keep buying the same thing over and over again than a single time. There have been big incentives on the government side for hitting GDP numbers, which has led to both low interest rates and an urgency to extract and process non-renewable resources as quickly as possible. Capital utilization numbers certainly doesn't account for any of this and very well exacerbate the problem.

I don't want to confuse cause and effect here, but the consumption of low quality products directly relates to the volume which they are produced. The actual costs have just been transferred to the future. In the future there will be both fewer resources to produce those goods and more pollution/ecosystem effects to account for it.

At Berkshire Hathaway's shareholder meeting this year Charlie Munger specifically said he thought all petrochemical reserves would be eventually exhausted to make things, not for fuel (there was a specific word he used which I never use and forgot.) Billionaires are thinking about resource exhaustion. Poor, uneducated people are not, unless they are still in hunter-gatherer societies and see problems first hand.

We often think of food and bio-products as renewables, but in many cases they are not. National Geographic (August 2016) ran a great article on the exhaustion of the Ogallala aquifer. California gets a lot of attention, but ground water is being drained globally. Longer term, there may be limits with phosphorus as well. Food production is going to become a lot more expensive, global warming or not.

I don't know about the returns, but Al Gore's Generation Investment Management philosophically probably has the right approach.

The flipside to all of this is that technology can make using the same resources much more efficient. My leading theme for the past 5+ years or so has been exponentially more efficient technology running head on in to global government policies -- of all political leanings -- of creating GDP growth at all costs. The two don't mix, and the results could be very ugly.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#135

Anyone can reuse old fully workable products in their every day life, it really is super easy and in many cases can be cheaper. While I do go occasionally go into thrift or antique stores, I also hit up garage sales, but my main source is ebay. Besides the good feeling from putting something back into service that would other wise be junked there can be some serious nostalgia involved. Examples, I have a Toastmaster…

I really like this idea. I collect old videogame consoles, so I'm pretty used to paying Ebay for nostalgia. However, I wonder if old electronics are much less efficient and end up using more electricity - thus actually causing more harm to the environment than a newer but more disposable plastic model.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it's the exact opposite. Saying you're not religious is political suicide!

Well saying you are not some form of Christian. Both an atheist and a Muslim would have no chance of being elected. Jewish seems to be generally okay. Not sure on Buddhist or other eastern religions.

As of 2010 there were two Muslims in the US Congress. There were also two or three Buddhists. (The number varies by source, I think because of confusion over how to categorize Soka Gakkai.) There were nine "Unspecified", which is probably what you'd put down if you were an atheist.

It is certainly helpful, and perhaps required, to be Christian (some flavor of Protestant, specifically) in many parts of the US if you want to be electable, but it is not as much of a political death sentence as is widely believed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Members_of_the_111th_United_St...

Intriguingly, the WP articles on more recent Congresses don't have the religious demographics easily accessible. I'm not sure if that's just a Wikipedia thing or if the data isn't being reported.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#137
post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

If anything, it seems like this might be a reasonably untapped area for innovation: making repairs more efficient. Right now all of the business and efficiency gains seem to be invested in lowering production cost, selling fast and hard to gain market share. It seems like a way to make repairs more efficient could be a solid way of attacking a market slowly with a quality product. Slower growth but you build a brand…

My school offered a semester course titled "Design for Manufacturability". We looked at things like lowering fastener and part count, to reduce assembly time (and assembly errors, etc.). It was taught by a part time guy who had a lot of experience with it in industry.

I may have missed it, but I don't think there was a similar "Design for Service" course. It's not been entirely ignored, there are makes of cars that mechanics hate to work on because service was not particularly accounted for in the design, and there are cars that they like a lot.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#138

This is a very nice move to see. Other people have discussed washing machines below, but there's even more to say on them. Washing machines used to have long warranty periods. Nowadays they tend to be sold with a 2 year warranty, which I believe in the EU is the required minimum. And these manufacturers (Bosch, for example) even have the gall to claim that their products are high quality and that this warranty period…

Maybe durable goods should be taxed inversely based on the length of the warranty.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#139

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

Some apparently fruitless legislative efforts are still useful, if only for signaling, dragging the Overton Window back to the left, kicking and screaming.

For example, states (in the USA) legalizing marijuana, even though our Feds still don't agree.

Ditto gay marriage rights.

Etc.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#140

This is a very nice move to see. Other people have discussed washing machines below, but there's even more to say on them. Washing machines used to have long warranty periods. Nowadays they tend to be sold with a 2 year warranty, which I believe in the EU is the required minimum. And these manufacturers (Bosch, for example) even have the gall to claim that their products are high quality and that this warranty period…

Buy MIELE, those survive for decades.
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