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The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

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Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#131
post #125
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does matter - we can fix self inflicted wounds a little easier than fix the culture of an organisation.

A little of both, actually. There was never a requirement to work more than 40 hours. In fact, last Friday I talked about how I'd probably work through the weekend to make the deadlines they set for the beginning of this week. They took pity on me and said I shouldn't even be checking my email over the weekend. I reluctantly agreed, and didn't work on the projects. But, guess who everyone was angry with come early th…

Sometimes things need to fail to improve...

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think @grecy was pretty clear, but FWIW, here's my interpretation: the system is either important enough to disturb employees after hours or it isn't. If it is, you need to define and implement a support protocol: on-call rotations, procedures, etc. If it isn't important enough to organize support for it, then it isn't important enough and you should not expect anyone to justify being off work and off duty.

Okay, I see. I will talk to my team on Monday and ask their opinion. For the record, I don't agree that life is as black and white as the first sentence. There are plenty of symptoms which "could" be serious issues, but after a phone call I know can be safely ignored.

I agree that it's not always possible to know how serious an issue is from a first glance at its symptoms, but my first sentence wasn't about issues, it was about systems.

Feel free to substitute the word "system" with "project" or "service" or whatever best fits your own terminology, but the gist is: a particular chunk of deployed software either deserves after-hour support or it doesn't. You either care whether it's misbehaving during "off" hours or you don't. If you do, you should care enough to organize proper support. That's all I was trying to say.

Of course, "you should" might be too strong a phrasing; what I mean is that I think that it would be better for everyone and that I would rather work at a place where things are that way than at a place where they are the way you described them.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#133
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most people just don't have the balls to draw a line and not cross it, mainly because of fear. simple as that.

Most people also don't set an alarm on their phone for 4:59 at which point they leave no matter what is happening. Not saying the GP is that person, but there are certainly extremes on both ends of the spectrum (working 80 hours a week v. refusing to work 8h 0m 1s under any non-emergency circumstance no matter what), and I've worked with both of them and neither are very enjoyable to be around. I've had meetings sche…

I agree with everything you've said, but how do you feel about your phone ringing at 2am on a Sunday?

Is it reasonable to come in and do a few hours then, and just do a few less on Monday morning?

I personally am happy to work the odd late day, even stay late with the team, grab a pizza, etc.

Getting calls in the middle of the night, or on the weekend, or on a holiday is a completely different thing that requires compensation, no exceptions.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#134
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, I see. I will talk to my team on Monday and ask their opinion. For the record, I don't agree that life is as black and white as the first sentence. There are plenty of symptoms which "could" be serious issues, but after a phone call I know can be safely ignored.

I appreciate your reply - thanks. I honestly would like to hear the thoughts of your team if you are happy to reply here please. In all honesty - you're right, I'm not very flexible. Either you're paying me to be on call and I'll answer my phone at 3am on a Sunday, or you're not. Let's flip it around so you see my point of view. Either I stick to the employment contract and ask you to pay me my salary this week, or f…

I do see your point, yes. The contract is formal for a reason. I'm being far too fuzzy, my team probably don't know what they're supposed to do in the case of an emergency, so log in out of a mixture of curiosity and apprehensiveness.

Hmmm. Well, I always hated pager duty, especially as a frontend engineer. What the hell did I know about these silly Hadoop clusters that were thrown together so badly? Why wake me up just so I can wake up the lazy SOB who can't build software properly?

I'd prefer not to impose that on my team. Is there a middle ground?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#135
Here's the somewhat passive aggressive approach.

1. Make sure you either arrive at work before your boss each day, or leave after your boss each day, or at least the large majority of days.

2. A couple times a week answer an email or two during the evening or weekend, preferably ones your boss will see. This doesn't have to take very much time. Don't force it, make sure they are emails that you are actually interested in and have a good response to.

3. Work smart and hard when you are working, be above average on your team despite probably spending less time in the office.

4. Work longer hours than you normally do when it's something really fun and you don't have much going on at home anyway. That situation does arise from time to time. Make sure, in a very natural way, that your boss notices when you do this, probably by telling him/her how fun it was.

5. When you have to duck out for an hour or two for the dentist or whatever, don't tell your boss unless you absolutely have to (e.g., you have to miss a meeting with him/her). You are an adult, he/she doesn't need to know where you are at all times. You don't ask permission to go to the bathroom, do you? In short, don't emphasize to your boss, "I'm not going to be working for the next little while" if you don't have to.

6. Keep all commitments that you make to be at work at a certain time. Try not to make very many of those commitments. Instead commit to getting work done, not just being somewhere.

If you are doing all that, you can work less than 40 hours most weeks and nobody will care.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#136
post #13

I don't know what's the perfect amount of work every week, but I'm sure anything > 40h is wrong, and you should add commute time if more than 30min/day, otherwise it's a fake figure. In 36-40h/week it's possible to do a lot of things. If you can't often is not because of the time, but because the same people wanting you to work more vaporize your time with meetings, conference calls, emails, phone calls, at a rate th…

Good post, but... Never say never. Instead, say "almost never". In this business, sometimes a crisis happens. Sometimes you need to be there more than 40 hours a week. I accept that as part of the profession, as long as it's rare . When a show-stopper bug gets exposed two days before we're supposed to ship, and my boss called me at 9 PM, I came in and was there until 1 AM identifying the problem. When it's only happe…

Yes a "sprint" is doable for me as well. 1/2 every year...

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#137

I went to a talk once on leadership. One of the suggestions was to get your "go to hell kit" ready. That is, get enough money in the bank (whatever that means for you) so that you can walk away if things cross your personal lines, be they moral / work-life balance, whatever. It's a good thing if there's pressure to work silly hours. In my first job (recent grad) before I left the job, I'd been working 5 weekends stra…

It's also known as "fuck you money", and there's a really good scene with John Goodman in The Gambler about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI So many people, especially in tech, work jobs that pay really, really, really well compared to most people and piss it away on stupid shit. You can choose to save a lot of that money instead and still have a very good and fulfilling life. Eventually, when you hav…

There's no security in the world like knowing you can tell your boss "fuck you" and be fine for a year or more (except perhaps two years or more =P ). You don't have to do it; you can just always know that you have the cash to walk out the door and never come back.

Or you can drive a Tesla.

I bet I know which one makes you feel better when you put your head on your pillow at night.

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#138

I went to a talk once on leadership. One of the suggestions was to get your "go to hell kit" ready. That is, get enough money in the bank (whatever that means for you) so that you can walk away if things cross your personal lines, be they moral / work-life balance, whatever. It's a good thing if there's pressure to work silly hours. In my first job (recent grad) before I left the job, I'd been working 5 weekends stra…

It's also known as "fuck you money", and there's a really good scene with John Goodman in The Gambler about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI So many people, especially in tech, work jobs that pay really, really, really well compared to most people and piss it away on stupid shit. You can choose to save a lot of that money instead and still have a very good and fulfilling life. Eventually, when you hav…

The question is where to get that reliable rate of return.

As I've thought about my investments, I've also struggled with the notion that I'm very heavily in non-dividend paying equities. While my growth has been great, I'm not really deriving any passive investment income to offset my living expenses (presumably for the opportunity for a higher rate of growth).

Do many that aim for this tend to focus more on dividend and income-providing investments instead, despite the lower rates of return?

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or four weeks' vacation in a jurisdiction with humane labour practices

I agree that 28 days is reasonable while 14 isn't really. But if we start calling 14 "inhumane", then we are in danger of losing our grip on what what inhumanity is. Which is to lose our grip on our moral compass.

I'd rather lose my grip in that direction than in the other

Re: The Programmer’s Guide to a Sane Workweek

#140

I think it also depends on the industry and way you are paid. If you are getting paid $100k doing simple web work, CRUD database stuff, JEE plumbing type where, wiring together libraries with Spring, etc. then you are probably going to complain about working more hours. If you are getting paid $250k or $300k doing something highly interesting that comes with tight deadlines like finance or trading, then you are going…

Your point about comp is really important. In roles where I felt I was not paid enough, and the pay was not life changing to begin with, I definitely valued my work/life balance more. In roles where significant changes in quality of life came from the job or comp, I pushed myself harder if it materially improved my outcomes.

That said, if your goals are financial independence, everyone needs to do a real reality check as to whether their current job (or even career path if you are junior) will ever let you reach that with your target lifestyle. I know people who love what they do, but the reality is I can't see how they could ever retire with what they earn even with a relatively frugal lifestyle.

On the flip side, I have an ibanker relative who would be on track for financial independence in his early thirties if only he didn't live an ibanker lifestyle.

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