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It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

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Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relational dbs sure, but there are legitimate scale reasons to use a distributed key value store (for instance). There is no reason to be stuck with PHP today though. It's a very backward language when you compare to something with a modern type system/features (e.g. Go, Rust, Clojure, Java 8+, Scala...). Devs need to have a passion for learning technology. Not because it's the shiny new thing but because the new tec…

Often times you have no control over the technology stack you use because other factors drive your choices. I'm stuck developing in PHP because the tool we are using is written in PHP.

You often have to learn this stuff outside of your regular job. Once you know another stack then you can find another job using it. That's how you exert control over your career. Tying yourself to one company (or stack) is a slow death sentence.

EDIT: to those downvoting this... Do you disagree with me (i.e. you think it's a good career decision to stick with a single tech stack) or do you agree but dislike that it has to be this way? Genuinely curious because I didn't think what I said was controversial at all, just industry observation/common sense.

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#132

I don't know about the Silicon Valley, but I'm in the Silicon Forest (Hillsboro/Portland Oregon) and this market seems to be very merit driven. You can be 80 years old and get a job if you can do work. Maybe you can't get a job at fart.IO building an API for some craft beer BS but at many mid to large companies 40 is still an average. The last 4-5 companies I've been at value bullet points over anything else (for wha…

Is jQuery too low level for people now?

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#133
I have a tough time with these stories. Although I don’t dispute that this bias exists, I feel like the subject matter is also damaging.

First of all, these articles are sensational and divisive. Folks over (or nearing) middle age are sensitive. They worry about being outmoded and removed/downsized. My hunch is that they read these articles out of fear. For younger folks, I suspect it’s reassuring to know that you have something to offer that older folks might not. So, for the publisher, these produce clicks/views.

However, when you get past the personal examples of exclusion, and some of the reductive arguments (e.g. “Younger people are just smarter.”) little of this is as simple as it first seems.

Fact is, for a long time, older workers were less technically competent than their younger counterparts. That said, for a generation that grew up with technology, this isn’t so much the case any longer. This became painfully obvious to me, while sitting with an Apple “Genius” one day. He was very hip; however, I needed to explain to him how to use the Find function in his browser. (Seriously.)

Young and older people both have something to contribute. Young ones often bring new ideas and perspectives because they’ve grown up differently. They lend enthusiasm and energy that older staff sometimes don’t. Frankly, older ones often don’t want to work marathon hours (this isn’t always the case, but tends to be). That said, older workers typically bring more knowledge and experience to the table.

I suspect that part of the bias in favor of younger workers comes from younger business owners (common in startups). I ran into this when we started our design studio. I was 26. At the time, it was scary to hire a 50-year-old to come in, because I didn’t feel comfortable directing someone that much older than me (I probably wouldn’t have admitted this at the time).

Additionally, those people typically wanted to earn more—and we didn’t think we could afford them. So, we hired younger folks who worked at a lower hourly rate, but often needed an inordinate amount of training and support.

Were I to start that company all over again, I’d do the opposite. I’d hire more skilled people and pay more than market rate. I’d then gauge their performance, and retain/dismiss solely based on that. In my experience, a skilled person at a higher rate of pay was always more valuable/profitable for our company than a less-skilled worker at a lower rate of pay.

My point is that the companies which use age as a barometer of value are approaching HR in a flawed way. The contribution of a staff member is more important than the date on his/her birth certificate. Meanwhile, the garment choices and pop-culture references one uses shouldn’t have any bearing on the value of the individual (unless we’re talking about a company who traffics in such matter).

That said, I think the real problem is the employee mindset. So long as your livelihood depends on one single organization, you put yourself at risk.

This is doubly-so for those who remain loyal to a company for a decade or more. HR departments are notoriously short-sighted when it comes to assessing skills. They like seeing candidates who fulfill the specific requirements of a job. Meanwhile, they often don’t understand which skills are transferrable (because they typically don’t actually understand the work/technology).

So, if you’ve worked in print publishing for the past 20 years, an HR person might not hire you to work in a digital content shop. However, web technologies aren’t that hard to master. Knowing a good story, understanding what attracts an audience, and having strong people skills are all much more valuable (and difficult to learn skills). But, still, those hiring often won’t see this—which puts such a person at a disadvantage.

There are many reasons why running your own startup, studio, consultancy are difficult. That said, all of these pursuits force you to be nimble. Most of them also allow you to distribute your income sources among multiple groups—which builds resilience.

And, after you’ve done any of these things, you tend to be more employable—because you have a stronger sense of what companies need. (Additionally, those who’ve “done it on their own” often exhibit characteristics that are attractive to management—especially those whose current staff is comprised primarily of box fillers.)

My point here (and I know I’ve carried on) is that the age discussion is a red herring. The real matter is how one remains relevant/valuable—regardless of age. Continual learning is a part of that. Another is one’s ability to adapt to less familiar roles (e.g., planning, sales, management, guidance). More importantly, though, no one should treat their employer as the gatekeeper to their future.

We’re all free agents. Some of us are mostly independent. Others play for teams. Those who play for teams should always know—and build—their value, so they don’t end up marooned.

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#134
post #119
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, why are there so many new IPAs in PNW? I like IPAs, but I doubt most people want them.

My theory: they taste like pine trees, and we've got a lot of pine trees, so it just feels right. Try drinking an IPA in Mexico sometimes. Super inappropes. But in PNW it makes sense. For awhile, til you get sick of it.

Pine trees smell good. They do not taste good.

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#135

I'm over 40 and I've been continuing to get more work than I can handle by staying up to date on my tech skills. Maybe that professional headshot I never got would help, though.

I'm personally sick of keeping my skills up to date (ie. learning whatever the trendy tech of the week happens to be), and I'm kind of burnt out on the whole tech scene in general.. actually burnt out on it long ago, but I keep working in the field because I don't have the training in anything else, and really don't have much motivation to put in the enormous amount of effort it will take to switch careers at this point.

Genuine enthusiasm is what I think a lot of younger people have over older people. After getting enough experience, I just really can't get very excited over the whole mobile craze, or IoT, or yet another f'ing scripting language, or automation, or what have you. I do admit I got excited about VR for a few months, but that wore off fast, and would probably have worn off even faster if I had worked in VR and was immersed in it 12 hours a day, every day for years on end.

Some people can somehow keep their enthusiasm for tech their whole lives, and it never gets old for them. I envy those people, but I have many other interests, and my interests tend to change relatively frequently, and I just can't keep a single-minded focus on just tech (or anything else) for very long. That's why working in tech is just a job for me. If I wasn't paid, and paid very well for it, I'd just keep it as a hobby.

I don't think it's just tech for me either. I think I'd feel about any profession the exact same way. After a while, I just get bored and want to move on to something else, something completely new and different.

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#136

I find it fascinating that when there is a discussion about age discrimination, most commenters have "advice" for the old farts how to stay current, learn current hip tech, be willing to work longer hours etc. However, we we talk about women in computing, it is always sexism and the discussion is about how the corporations need to change to attract more women. Pretty asymmetrical, don't you think?

I do think. Probably the same unconscious ageism in action: if you are having trouble getting hired and you're over 40, it's obviously because your skills are out of date.

Hiring involves a lot of "People Like Us" evaluation, consciously in many cases. And if you're over 40, you're probably not like "Us" in SV.

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#137

I find it fascinating that when there is a discussion about age discrimination, most commenters have "advice" for the old farts how to stay current, learn current hip tech, be willing to work longer hours etc. However, we we talk about women in computing, it is always sexism and the discussion is about how the corporations need to change to attract more women. Pretty asymmetrical, don't you think?

Yap. There are already implicit assumptions made before the question is even discussed.

It is a bit like say telling women: "Don't dress as sexy, don't wear too much makeup, it will help you slip under the radar. Maybe you won't be propositioned as much, etc."

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#138

I don't know about the Silicon Valley, but I'm in the Silicon Forest (Hillsboro/Portland Oregon) and this market seems to be very merit driven. You can be 80 years old and get a job if you can do work. Maybe you can't get a job at fart.IO building an API for some craft beer BS but at many mid to large companies 40 is still an average. The last 4-5 companies I've been at value bullet points over anything else (for wha…

Ouch man.... not all craft beer software is BS CRUD apps overbuilt on react.js by 22 year old hipsters deploying single function "micro-services" each in their own docker container... Brewing beer is a form of manufacturing, and most manufacturing can be made better or more efficient though targeted software. [0] commenting because I don't want "craft beer software" to become a joke. Some of us actually work in that…

Isn't manufacturing also dominated by PLCs and ladder logic? Not sure that's much better for my sanity!

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#139
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just Portland, the entire American craft beer scene is infected with shitty, indistinguishable IPA's that all taste like a mountain of hops.

There are definitely a lot of bad IPA's, but that's hardly even a significant part of the American Craft Beer scene these days.

Googling "west coast beer style" has this[0] as the first result. You could argue that this isn't a canonical source or that things have changed since the thread in 2011--but the stigma is still around.

[0] https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic...

Re: It’s Tough Being Over 40 in Silicon Valley

#140
post #88

Try being over 60 & gettind cred. "How could you possibly understand bleeding edge tech and emerging trends?" Well...I've lived there for four decades, you?

Yes, this. And even worse, "I recognize that 'bleeding edge tech' as yet another rehash of something innovated in the 60s or 70s and therefore I'm not nearly as impressed as you by it."

This sort of remark reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFWeoxrhbE8 (or perhaps https://youtu.be/ZjibEkDoXQc?t=19)

It doesn't add much value to the conversation and whether some tech is really a rehash or not rarely matters. It also makes you sound cynical.

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