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FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

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Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#131

Post by bko »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #118
bko wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people enjoy using the product for whatever reason and spend their money on these products. Should we just ignore those preferences? Why are we so quick to disregard those preferences in some cases and not in others, such as recreational drug use?

Because unlike recreational drugs^, antibacterials re-enter the water supply, change the biology of your neighbors and farm animals, and cause existing strains of bacteria to become more antibiotic-resistant. It is possible that within a decade or two, penicillin will be lose its usefulness, and we'll be back to the stage of history where cuts and scrapes could become life-threatening. ^ a related problem is the flus…

Some would equally argue that use of recreational drugs is harmful to the user, harms relationships and undermines society in a lot of respects. These things can all be true but it's not necessarily enough grounds to use the power and resources of the state to actively ban a substance.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#132

Post by hooloovoo_zoo »

enave wrote: post #31
okreallywtf wrote: post #10

I hope its not too little too late, we've known about bacterial resistance for decades at this point. Here is hoping animal feed is next.

You have a common misconception. Antibacterial soaps don't cause bacterial resistance. Antibiotics do, but that's because antibiotics must selectively kill bacteria while inside the human body and without harming human cells. Antibacterial doesn't really have a precise medical definition, but in practice they're dilute antiseptics. In many centuries of use, bacteria have not developed resistance to antiseptics. There…

It's not a misconception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan#Resistance_concerns

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#133

Post by mattkrause »

niels_olson wrote: post #65

We have no evidence that surgeons scrubbing before donning gloves makes sense either. In fact, there's an undergraduate experiment where people scrub for up to 3-4 minutes and swab after every 10 seconds and plate the swab. The plates actually show more colony-forming units until about 3 minutes, which is much longer than most surgeons scrub. Which suggests that the scrubbing actually liberates bacteria found at the…

> which is much longer than most surgeons scrub.

How sure are you about this? There's usually some kind of timer (and, sometimes, an assistant) to ensure that you wash for the specified amount of time.

Also, I always figured that scrubbing was essentially a precaution in case the gloves ripped or snagged (which, being thin latex, is far from improbable).

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#134

Post by Kenji »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #124
Kenji wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, what happens if I try to sell you random substances and the authorities dispatch police officers to stop me and I do not comply because I want to exercise my right to trade with you? I can tell you. Violence. If you disagree with me again, I am going to punch you, but it's not violence because I'm not doing it if you don't do it again ;)

You don't have a right to endanger public health.

So you don't deny that enforcing a ban requires violence, thus a ban is an extreme and violent stance to take and only makes sense if there is evidence that harm can be prevented, which was my initial statement.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#135

Post by brewdad »

eli wrote: post #128
AstralStorm wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not heavy-handed at all. Educational campaigns have no chance against strong marketing. How many smokers quit due to them?

Smoking rates are declining in most of the world due in a large part to educational campaigns and warning labels. I agree with the FDA ban, but I don't think smoking is the best way to make your point.

Smoking rates may be declining due to public smoking bans limiting the number of places one is even allowed to smoke. At some point, quitting makes more sense than planning ones day around designated smoking areas.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#136

Post by CommanderData »

djschnei wrote: post #33

I guess I'm weird; I have no idea why the government has the ability to dictate what is and isn't in the soap that I choose to buy. I agree however, anti-bacterial soap is silly. Looks like a lot of people here agree. Looks like a market segment to me. Didn't need a gun, theft, or a jail cell to create it.

That can be said for a lot of things. I'd say the gov is right in this case to listen to the Scientists advising them. If there was a secret agenda behind this I'd say they'd be encouraging people to use anti-bacterial soap because of all the concerns already raised by people in this thread.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#137

Post by niels_olson »

boobsbr wrote: post #80
niels_olson wrote: post #65

We have no evidence that surgeons scrubbing before donning gloves makes sense either. In fact, there's an undergraduate experiment where people scrub for up to 3-4 minutes and swab after every 10 seconds and plate the swab. The plates actually show more colony-forming units until about 3 minutes, which is much longer than most surgeons scrub. Which suggests that the scrubbing actually liberates bacteria found at the…

VERY interesting. Care to share the paper? EDIT: Some surgeons argue that having a beard can carry more bacteria into a surgery room, while others argue that shaving might make the surgeon more susceptible to infection by bacteria from the surgery room, since epitelial cells are removed by the razor blade.

The experiment I described is done in undergrad bio labs, I honestly can't find a paper a paper on it. Anyone with an interest: there's a paper that could easily be published!

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#138

Post by omginternets »

bko wrote: post #112
omginternets wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely there is some negative effects to any recreational drug use, especially alcohol. There are also significant benefits to recreational drug use, especially alcohol. The same is not true of antibacterial soaps.

But people spend millions on this product every year? Surely they get some benefit. You can argue that the benefits of drug use are actually a mirage since it's linked to so many other problems, health and social.

>But people spend millions on this product every year? Surely they get some benefit.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.

>You can argue that the benefits of drug use are actually a mirage since it's linked to so many other problems, health and social.

You could, but you'd be ignoring the health benefits of certain patterns of consumption.

What you can't do is argue that antibacterial soap has the same social and cultural significance as Chartreuse or Cognac, nor can you claim that there exists a mode of consumption for antibacterial soap that has net positive effects (outside of a hospital).

Yes, it's a trade-off. We're on the same page. The point is rather that one of the two categories (drugs) has a positive counterweight to its negative effects while the other does not.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#139

Post by jonknee »

balabaster wrote: post #74

Taking the article at face value: So they can order the removal of anti-bacterial agents because they haven't scientifically been proven beneficial and there are potentially unknown side effects. Err on the side of caution, that's a wise decision. ... yet they use terms like GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) for things like Roundup Ready crops which have been scientifically (allegedly, I haven't read and understood a…

But Roundup actually works and works really well. There is no proof that food allergies are related. Anti-bacterial soap isn't proven to work better than regular soap and we have legitimate concerns about anti-bacterial resistance.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#140

Post by Kenji »

allengeorge wrote: post #126
Kenji wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certain that the FDA, with its ban on certain substances, has caused more deaths and misery than it has ever prevented. Not to mention financial losses. Before you ask accusory questions, why not refine your own position and brush off the smugness?

Examples then? Are are you speaking only in unverifiable "if only" hypotheticals?

Uhh... Pretty much the entire war on drugs? I am surprised you even had to ask. There is much more though, as you can find in this comment, for example:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12414467

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