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'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

latimes.com

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Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#131
post #17
post #13

On the same topic, I've actually set aside a down payment for a house, but I probably won't be buying for another year or so. I'm wondering what is a good way to invest this money since leaving it in the bank at less than 1% interest really isn't doing much.

How comfortable are you seeing the value of your investment decline? Edit: WTF, downvoter: that's entirely what his question comes down to. If he's cool with it, then maybe something riskier might be warranted. If not, then 'sitting in the bank' might be ok.

I didn't down vote you, but your original comment didn't add much to the discussion, and could be viewed as snark.

If your edit, minus the wtf, had been in the original comment, then probably no one would have downvoted.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#132
For those who haven't read "Flash Boys", this a synopsis of the book:

Canadian banker Brad Katsuyama notices prices for stocks he is buying change price almost the instant he places his order to purchase them.

Turns out that this happens when he places a larger order than can be filled at a single exchange. After some investigation he determines that HFT traders "see" his trade on the local NJ exchange and buy up stock at other (further away) exchanges before said banker can fill his order at the original (lower) price.

His solution: Send orders to multiple exchanges but delay the orders to the closest ones so orders arrive at exchanges more or less simultaneously thus defeating that particular HFT strategy. The coil of fiber is the method used to achieve that delay.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#133

For those who haven't read "Flash Boys", this a synopsis of the book: Canadian banker Brad Katsuyama notices prices for stocks he is buying change price almost the instant he places his order to purchase them. Turns out that this happens when he places a larger order than can be filled at a single exchange. After some investigation he determines that HFT traders "see" his trade on the local NJ exchange and buy up sto…

My understanding was that they had a software called Thor to generate the artificial delay in sending their trades to the different exchanges.

This new exchange uses the long coil of fiber to enable all traders from around the world to benefit from that protection. I'm wondering if they really had to go to that extent to get the speed bump. But hey since shame has yet to force formally verified software on anyone's radar, the long coil will certainly do.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vanguard runs etfs mostly, so I'm not sure why they care about support small spreads since they probably do a lot of efp trades (I'm not sure how the underlying prices are determined, but I think they can convert at a set price). The mutual funds and hedge funds who are more fundamental will try and buy or sell large blocks, so they're more affected by adverse market moves from trying to dump $1M of apple. I could se…

> Vanguard runs etfs mostly Is there a socially acceptable way to call a person an ignoramus on HN?

Sorry, what's ignorant about that?

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#135
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your intuition about financial markets does not match reality. In financial markets no one knows that you want to buy a gallon of milk (or a share of stock) until your bid has already been submitted. No matter how fast their Ferrari, there is no way for them to get in line ahead of you at the store.

Ohh there is a way to do it, and it is a show on 60/60. I think to be specific, there is a delay between NJ switch to Wall st, so some ppl tap in the switch in NJ, know what you plan on to order, then make their order use a different route to wall st... this was well documented. I dont know if it still exist though.

This is the complete opposite of what is happening.

What you're describing is straight up hacking, and if there was as clear of a breach of the law like that, we wouldn't be having civil discussions about whether HFT is good or not.

Besides, almost nothing routes to Wall Street anymore. Especially not for stocks.

NASDAQ's trading platform is in Carteret, NJ. NYSE's trading platform is in Mahwah, NJ. Most HFT firms, if they're not already colocated in Carteret or Mahwah, are located in Secaucus, NJ.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#136
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should read "Flash Boys" then. They can and do. Orders start at one place, and by regulation then can get sent to many other markets. If you can go to those next markets a little faster, you can front run the order.

Flash Boys uses a totally fabricated use of "front running". It's worse than people that call copyright infringement "theft". That book is probably one of the worst books I've read as far as accuracy goes. At least that I'm aware of. Seriously, at one point, Lewis suggests that the trading station of some big trader is hacked. That just by typing numbers without submitting an order, stuff jumps. This should send huge…

Some programmers don't understand latency, so there's no hope for anyone who's not familiar with software development to wrap their head around the concept of "yes, things happen in milliseconds".

Which makes it all the more easier to get away with anything that sounds as sensational as this.

https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#137

For those who haven't read "Flash Boys", this a synopsis of the book: Canadian banker Brad Katsuyama notices prices for stocks he is buying change price almost the instant he places his order to purchase them. Turns out that this happens when he places a larger order than can be filled at a single exchange. After some investigation he determines that HFT traders "see" his trade on the local NJ exchange and buy up sto…

My understanding was that they had a software called Thor to generate the artificial delay in sending their trades to the different exchanges. This new exchange uses the long coil of fiber to enable all traders from around the world to benefit from that protection. I'm wondering if they really had to go to that extent to get the speed bump. But hey since shame has yet to force formally verified software on anyone's r…

The long coil is a hardware solution that keeps everyone honest. I have a suspicion that the financial incentives offered to the exchange to bypass a software delay would be too great to turn down -- especially years from now if the original players are gone.

Edit: Oops. Maybe they can bypass the coil for certain orders. Well that doesn't make sense...

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#138

For those who haven't read "Flash Boys", this a synopsis of the book: Canadian banker Brad Katsuyama notices prices for stocks he is buying change price almost the instant he places his order to purchase them. Turns out that this happens when he places a larger order than can be filled at a single exchange. After some investigation he determines that HFT traders "see" his trade on the local NJ exchange and buy up sto…

The book picks up in the middle of the story after the first step in electronic trading has started, but before all participants are on a level playing field.

Human market makers at those exchanges are entering their quotes(by hand even). And Brad Katsuyama uses new electronic technology to crush them. Taking their entire inventories and moving the markets against them.

The human market makers fight back and make their computers do the market making for them and Brad is hurt because his technology is no longer the best way to trade.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#139
post #53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to by 100,000 gallons of milk you don't have a god given right to do so at the currently posted prices in every grocery store in town. Those grocers are well within their rights to raise prices as soon as they figure out what you're doing.

The grocers' price is irrelevant to the discussion here. The guy with the Ferrari would still outrun you and offer you a new price, with a margin just enough for them to be profitable, yet not substantially large as to talk you out of the deal altogether.

On the contrary, the grocers' prices are the very heart of the matter. You see, the Ferrari neighbor may be HFT, but so are the grocers. And every grocer wants to sell their goods at a newly-higher price if they get wind of a big buyer, because it will cost them more to restock if you buy everything. So they will naturally raise their prices. If you buy from the grocers one at a time, expect them to call the other stores (ok it's a chain grocery) to alert them. You will pay a lot for your last milk purchase, unless you stop buying because the asking price has gone too high. If you instead have milk trucks make synchronized purchases across town, you will pay the same price everywhere, and all of the grocers will be upset once they realize what happened. If you do the synchronized milk truck plan enough, the grocers may permanently raise their milk prices at the expense of losing a few other price-conscience buyers.

In reality, this occurs i the stock market because the "national market" consists of something like 15 different exchanges in a big distributed system, so there are race conditions. HFT market makers trade on all of the exchanges, and adjust their prices based on trading demand seen from other exchanges. They spend a lot of money on fast networks between the exchanges, so that they can be/beat the proverbial ferarri. But synchronized trades a la tgemilk trucks or Katsayuma's "Thor" cannot be raced against.

IEX is intended to partially commoditize the Thor approach: take the advantage away from the grocers (HFT, market makers) and give it to the big milk buyers (institutions like hedge funds and pension funds). Retail trading is not affected one way or another.

Re: 'Flash Boys' IEX stock exchange opens for business

#140
post #80
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not generally a fan of viewing the world in terms of an extended version of the social struggle from high school, but given that this actually does do a reasonably accurate caricature of human market makers versus HFT firms, this has always confused me regarding HN's reaction to HFT. In one corner, we have sweaty alpha male jocks [+]. In the other corner, we have geeks with computers. The geeks ran the table on t…

I thought about your question on my walk home from work today. I decided that as much as jocks vs geeks is a powerful force, a more powerful force is people's distrust of middlemen. People don't really understand that liquidity provisioning is a service that needs to be paid for. They think that if we could just wipe all middlemen off the face of the planet that buyers could just trade with sellers and we'd all save…

I agree about distrust of middlemen. The analogy that i would go with is that the biggest HFT firms are like big-box retailers. Not glamorous at all (despite the math), and most of the hard work is in automation/process to manage the storefronts and inventory at scale. HFT becomes comparable to walmart, which does not engender much love.
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