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React is mostly hype

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Re: React is mostly hype

#131

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

saskurambo wrote: post #130
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All VDOM systems are. The difference is how explicit the data binding is: I maintain implicit 2-way binds, Angluar style, are a Bad Idea.

Mmm no sorry i don't agree. For me virtual dom is only a tree generated from code,diffed and batched. Speaking only of the algoritm. For me databining templates libraries are vue and ractive. See this 2 links for comparison. https://vuejs.org/guide/comparison.html http://blog.ractivejs.org/posts/whats-the-difference-between...

That's true, but what I meant was that all VDOM based systems have binding to some degree, and where optimization is required, explicit is better than implicit.

Re: React is mostly hype

#132

Post by davelnewton »

pests wrote: post #125
davelnewton wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] I feel implicitly encouraged DOM manipulations. That's jQuery's primary job. It isn't DOM manipulation that causes code/architectural issues. "All" (I'm simplifying) jQuery does is provide mechanisms to select and manipulate DOM. How to organize its usage is an exercise left to the reader, and most readers did it poorly. It's not jQuery's fault that people wrote shitty code with it. And, in fairness, when Pro…

Take an average developer (or two) and sit them down in front of React and jQuery for the first time. My bet is anything based on React will be better built than that of jQuery. Of course you can architect those flexible, extensible, testable and clean projects. But straight out of the box you do not get that with jQuery. It requires planning and architecture engineering. Whereas every React project starts off with t…

I both agree and disagree. If you code yourself into a corner with React it can be harder to understand and untangle: it's much easier to understand jQuery under the covers than React, especially if you're using other parts of the React ecosystem.

None of this is related to what I said originally, which is that jQuery doesn't encourage shitty code. jQ's original purpose wasn't to organize developer activity, it was to simplify one tiny portion of it.

> [Good code in jQ] requires planning and architecture engineering.

Precisely what I said.

(That said, if you don't do that with React, you'll still end up with a mess.)

Re: React is mostly hype

#133

Post by meira »

mack73 wrote: post #75
mrweasel wrote: post #68

I don't really see the difference between most modern JavaScript "frameworks". It's mostly in the details, and any of them would work just fine. At this point it's like arguing which of X number of programming languages are the best. Part of seems to be: "How dare people not like the tool I prefer", or simply that people don't want to be bothered to learn yet another JavaScript library (which I can understand, but I'…

First time I read a blog post about react and saw it's artifacts so to speak I threw up in my mouth. Js AND HTML, mixed! Wtf? I spoke about this to lots of front-enders who laughed and called me old. I agree with your point. If markup and UI code can be separated, why wouldn't you strive for such a solution?

Because HTML is not a programming language thus you have very limited options to work with.

Re: React is mostly hype

#134

Post by meira »

rtpg wrote: post #100
DHMO wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was quoting. Did you read everything that I wrote? I thought I did a pretty good job telling the entire story.

Right, if you look at the contents of the license in the discussion, they are variants of "if you try to fight us with patents, we will deny you a license/patents". So you can compete with FB without losing a license. The first blog post you quoted shows a misunderstanding of the license (the word "compete" doesn't show up in the license). So the correct representation is "If you claim patent infringement by FB, you…

Or if Facebook claim patent infringement against you. So what he summarised is right.

Re: React is mostly hype

#135

Post by pests »

davelnewton wrote: post #132
pests wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take an average developer (or two) and sit them down in front of React and jQuery for the first time. My bet is anything based on React will be better built than that of jQuery. Of course you can architect those flexible, extensible, testable and clean projects. But straight out of the box you do not get that with jQuery. It requires planning and architecture engineering. Whereas every React project starts off with t…

I both agree and disagree. If you code yourself into a corner with React it can be harder to understand and untangle: it's much easier to understand jQuery under the covers than React, especially if you're using other parts of the React ecosystem. None of this is related to what I said originally, which is that jQuery doesn't encourage shitty code. jQ's original purpose wasn't to organize developer activity, it was t…

I agree and disagree as well.

My point about planning and architecture was to contrast it against what I believe React is better at.

Personally I think React is easier to understand. Honestly the vDom is an implementation detail people get stuck on. Pure functions, well defined state owneeship and transition, and so on are the real benefits.

The other main criticism is JSX which is totally optional and mixing implementing with presentation; the "correct" which I believe to be a outdated but still accepted belief that went out of style around Web 2.0. This separation is not required either, you can rewrite render() to pull from any templating engine or whatever. Or use HOF/HOC via the presentation/containener design pattern.

I realize I went off topic but I've been wanting to compiler my thoughts on this.

Re: React is mostly hype

#136

Post by [deleted] »

davelnewton wrote: post #132
pests wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take an average developer (or two) and sit them down in front of React and jQuery for the first time. My bet is anything based on React will be better built than that of jQuery. Of course you can architect those flexible, extensible, testable and clean projects. But straight out of the box you do not get that with jQuery. It requires planning and architecture engineering. Whereas every React project starts off with t…

I both agree and disagree. If you code yourself into a corner with React it can be harder to understand and untangle: it's much easier to understand jQuery under the covers than React, especially if you're using other parts of the React ecosystem. None of this is related to what I said originally, which is that jQuery doesn't encourage shitty code. jQ's original purpose wasn't to organize developer activity, it was t…

[deleted]

Re: React is mostly hype

#137

Post by davelnewton »

pests wrote: post #135
davelnewton wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I both agree and disagree. If you code yourself into a corner with React it can be harder to understand and untangle: it's much easier to understand jQuery under the covers than React, especially if you're using other parts of the React ecosystem. None of this is related to what I said originally, which is that jQuery doesn't encourage shitty code. jQ's original purpose wasn't to organize developer activity, it was t…

I agree and disagree as well. My point about planning and architecture was to contrast it against what I believe React is better at. Personally I think React is easier to understand. Honestly the vDom is an implementation detail people get stuck on. Pure functions, well defined state owneeship and transition, and so on are the real benefits. The other main criticism is JSX which is totally optional and mixing impleme…

React is better at enabling planning and architecture; that's part of its job. That was explicitly not part of jQuery's job. jQuery was a tool to be used as part of a larger strategy. Lots of people chose to ignore that part of their code, and paid the price.

I like JSX quite a bit as well; IMO creating an artificial separation between presentation and behavior is not a useful way to think about web apps.

Separating data from presentation and behavior is fine, and is a long-standing GUI tradition.

Re: React is mostly hype

#138

Post by pests »

davelnewton wrote: post #137
pests wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree and disagree as well. My point about planning and architecture was to contrast it against what I believe React is better at. Personally I think React is easier to understand. Honestly the vDom is an implementation detail people get stuck on. Pure functions, well defined state owneeship and transition, and so on are the real benefits. The other main criticism is JSX which is totally optional and mixing impleme…

React is better at enabling planning and architecture; that's part of its job. That was explicitly not part of jQuery's job. jQuery was a tool to be used as part of a larger strategy. Lots of people chose to ignore that part of their code, and paid the price. I like JSX quite a bit as well; IMO creating an artificial separation between presentation and behavior is not a useful way to think about web apps. Separating…

I think we're really in agreement about everything. The tools have intended jobs; some people use them incorrectly or without regard to best-practices. Both have different strengths and failure modes.

I would say JSX and the separation of presentation / behavior is orthogonal.

JSX is just a Javascript powered embedded SGML-like document.

The combining of presentation and behavior is caused by render() being defined inline with implementation.

You can not use JSX by using ReactDOM directly or a templating library while still keeping render() inlined.

Or you can move render() to another class (or subclassed, or HOC, whatever) and separate the presentation and behavior with or without JSX.

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