Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#131

Post by cesarbs » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

runeks wrote: post #126

localhost wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At any company (Microsoft included) where performance-based compensation exists, there is a budget for that line item. Therefore it is a zero-sum game - to pay someone more because of their performance, that means that someone else gets less (or zero) from that line item. So, depending on how you interpret the term "stack ranking", you can either look at it as "forced removal of the bottom x% of the company" or "peop…

> At any company (Microsoft included) where performance-based > compensation exists, there is a budget for that line item. I'd like to point out that it's possible to pay bonuses out of profits, rather than a fixed, yearly pre-allocated pool. If employees are only paid a bonus when they add to company profits, there is no competition for bonus funds between employees. So for example, if you have a great idea that sav…

The problem is, how do you measure that? There are a bunch of good ideas that most people will agree provide a benefit, but it's really hard to come up with an objective measure of how much money that makes or saves.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#132

Post by cesarbs » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:38 PM UTC

whatever_dude wrote: post #50

MIKarlsen wrote: post #37

I find the whole "You are a person who spend every waking hour optimizing yourself to become the best YOU you can be"-frame of mind very intimidating. Maybe it's because I'm not american, but even though I like to work with complex issues, I also like a 9-17 job with a decent income, and the ability to go home and relax when I'm not working. And by relax, I don't mean working on side projects, doing volunteer work or…

You're right - it's very much an American thing. Maybe not exclusive to the US, and it may vary by state or background, but still very common there from my experience with family and friends. In American culture, unless you're financially constrained, you grow up with someone hammering down the idea that you have to be doing something productive and getting better 100% of the time. If you're a kid, you have to be inv…

> you are being judged 100% of the time

This hits close to home. I've been living in America for ~3.5 years now and my wife and I were just talking about this the other day. In our home country (Brazil), people are a lot more genuinely interested in other people. Here, it is very clear to us that people judge whether we're worth their time and attention, and that judgment is clearly based on achievement and how important/great/awesome our lives are.

We are extreme introverts, not "people people" at all, but we've learned to appreciate our own people a lot more than when we were living back there. We used to be annoyed at most Brazilians' extroversion and warmth, but now we appreciate it because it is a very genuine sentiment of just wanting to know new people, no matter who they are or where they come from.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#133

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:42 PM UTC

Pinatubo wrote: post #122

The "flat structure" at Valve reminds me of the"unlimited vacation" policy at Netflix. It sounds liberating, but also offers the potential for employees to be judged by rules that are no longer clearly spelled out.

It may not be spelled out in the handbook, but it's not that hard to figure out the rules in a company like this. Office politics make or break your career.

It's a great place to work for three or four years if they're doing something you want to learn. You wouldn't want to stay too long, though.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#134

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:43 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #123

Pinatubo wrote: post #122

The "flat structure" at Valve reminds me of the"unlimited vacation" policy at Netflix. It sounds liberating, but also offers the potential for employees to be judged by rules that are no longer clearly spelled out.

"Unlimited PTO" Is a hallmark of most tech companies. And yeah, it's total bullshit. Give me my 4 weeks a year and let me take them without any judgement, thank you.

Heh. Unlimited PTO is unlimited in the same way ISPs provide unlimited data - it's unlimited for people who don't use it.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#135

Post by gavanwoolery » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 9:46 PM UTC

I researched Valve quite a bit before applying there (I did not get in, but one of their senior team members wrote me a nice message). Some interesting bits I found:

- The average engineer there makes at least $400k/year with bonuses, although it could be much more (or less, if they somehow wind up in a bad project). IIRC Valve makes around $2m of profit for every head in the company (they only have ~300 employees or so).

- In spite of the seemingly ideal flat organization, many people find themselves unhappy there. One former employee hints at some reasons here: http://richg42.blogspot.com/2015/01/open-office-spaces-and-c... From other employees, I have heard that the flat organization and bonus structure leads to unnecessary drama/rivalry, poor communication (or even fear of communication), lack of innovation (creating your own project is discouraged, and teams have financial incentive to stick with projects that pay the highest bonus), etc. This is not to say Valve is a "bad" place to work at, I am sure it beats the hell out of many other job environments, even ignoring the excellent pay.

- If you do want to work there, you will probably have had to shipped multiple titles AND be recommended by an existing team member (alternately, writing a popular mod is equally lucrative). Typically, applying through their website will not get you a job - they usually hire by actively looking through a pool of candidates that they already know of. They also look for candidates who are good at producing high amounts of customer value - they care more about this than technical ability.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#136

Post by mmanfrin » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:08 PM UTC

Det_Jacobian wrote: post #130

So Valve is definitely idealized by people outside (and inside) the game industry, but definitely much less so by people who have worked there. The flat structure is sort of a pipe dream that leaves nobody actually in charge of important decisions, while hiding a de facto power structure that certainly exists despite being non-explicit. The company has transitioned to being the company that owns Steam as a platform (…

  Eventually the market will figure out that they don't need 
  to pay Steam 30% of sales to host files on a server

That's overly negative and pretty disingenuous. App developers for Android can sell their APKs directly and save 30%, but they don't because of the convenience of the market.

Similarly, I rarely buy games outside of Steam (or GOG) except in the cases of very indie developers who provide a steam key when I buy directly from them. The Steam service is a good one. When I build a new computer, I just need to install steam and my entire library is ready to install. Valve have rightfully found a gold mine from a service that they made that is a net value to consumers.

And even if Steam didn't exist, a non-publisher-specific store is still needed. I'd go to GOG (for similar reasons as I use Steam).

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#137

Post by serge2k » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:15 PM UTC

Det_Jacobian wrote: post #130

So Valve is definitely idealized by people outside (and inside) the game industry, but definitely much less so by people who have worked there. The flat structure is sort of a pipe dream that leaves nobody actually in charge of important decisions, while hiding a de facto power structure that certainly exists despite being non-explicit. The company has transitioned to being the company that owns Steam as a platform (…

> they don't need to pay Steam 30% of sales to host files on a server

Publishers have tried to avoid this and people have whined endlessly about how horrible their alternatives are (eg. origin) while steam continues to be a mediocre at best experience.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#138

Post by serge2k » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:18 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #135

I researched Valve quite a bit before applying there (I did not get in, but one of their senior team members wrote me a nice message). Some interesting bits I found: - The average engineer there makes at least $400k/year with bonuses, although it could be much more (or less, if they somehow wind up in a bad project). IIRC Valve makes around $2m of profit for every head in the company (they only have ~300 employees or…

> In spite of the seemingly ideal flat organization,

Why does this seem ideal? A flatter hierarchy is almost always preferable, but taken to an extreme it seems like inevitable chaos.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#139

Post by theinternetman » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:25 PM UTC

AimHere wrote: post #23

Karunamon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of me wonders if the Valve management structure isn't almost completely to blame for things like their infamously bad customer service. I could see why - dealing with support tickets from irate people is not a particularly interesting (or judging by Steam's runaway success: particularly value adding) activity. Not that I mean to hijack this to complain about Steam, but you have to admit it's a benefit of a tradi…

I suspect it's much more that Valve is an insanely lightweight company for it's customer base. It has something like 330 employees servicing 100 million customers on the go-to PC gaming platform, and a lot of those employees are working on shiny tech and new games. As a comparison, Rockstar North's facility in Edinburgh has roughly the same employee count (slightly more by Wikipedia's count), and all they do is put o…

> Rockstar North's facility in Edinburgh has roughly the same employee count (slightly more by Wikipedia's count), and all they do is put out one new game every 5 years or so.

Yeah they actually manage to ship games (that manage to make back the entire production budget in pre-orders alone), not just sit on their hands running an online store with an outdated and clunky client.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#140

Post by gavanwoolery » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 10:26 PM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #138

gavanwoolery wrote: post #135

I researched Valve quite a bit before applying there (I did not get in, but one of their senior team members wrote me a nice message). Some interesting bits I found: - The average engineer there makes at least $400k/year with bonuses, although it could be much more (or less, if they somehow wind up in a bad project). IIRC Valve makes around $2m of profit for every head in the company (they only have ~300 employees or…

> In spite of the seemingly ideal flat organization, Why does this seem ideal? A flatter hierarchy is almost always preferable, but taken to an extreme it seems like inevitable chaos.

I suppose I am just going off the completely non-scientific vibe I got when I first heard people describing the organization many years ago. I think how ideal it seems (or actually is) is in the eye of the beholder :)