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How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#131

Post by patrickg_zill »

gpvos wrote: post #48
majewsky wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I can understand that a lot of economic policies can be viewed in the way the author describes (a relentless pursuit of efficiency), but Ivy League overlords are also doing a lot of stuff that's just plain greed and can't be explained away with efficiency. For example high-frequency trading. Or (here in Germany) renting ruinous hotels to the government as refugee centers at bizarre rates because there was lit…

High-frequency trading is usually justified by pointing at increased market fluidity, which is a positive thing in principle. Whether that is enough justification for the problems it causes is clearly something that should be discussed more.

That's the justification. If you go to e.g. zerohedge.com and find an article showing the millisecond by millisecond bidding by hft, you might come to the conclusion that the justification is hollow.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#132

Post by dnautics »

elgabogringo wrote: post #3

I don't think the distinguishing characteristic of bankers is their desire for economic efficiency. It's their desire for self-enrichment. Maybe the author doesn't mean actual bankers , but is instead referring to central bankers, in which case I'd argue that the meager GDP growth achieved from an unprecedented expansion of central banking assets has been anything but efficient. Regardless, the fact that the author c…

I don't think central bankers have a particularly egregious desire for self-enrichment. I do think however, their policies have been disastrous for pretty much everyone. If anything, it's their "altruistic" behaviour and prescriptions for society that have had these unintended consequences.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#133

Post by simonh »

ionised wrote: post #75
simonh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work in London at all, you get trickle down from the financial services sector. People who work in finance drink in your coffee shop, eat in your restaurant, ride in your bus or taxi, buy things in your shop. Look at what happened in 2008. Finance caught a cold and the entire global economy including Britain fell flat on it's back. Brexit has the potential to do far more damage over a much longer period of tim…

And those same people leech off the public purse in order to bail themselves out of their greedy, malicious fuck ups that end up ruining economies and destroying lives.

Alright, you hate bankers and financiers. I get it. Fair enough, that's your right and I won't argue the point.

However London is a global cultural and trade hub entirely due to it's finance industry. Take that away and what does London or Britain have economically? Every single London resident would suffer from that from lower wages, fewer employment prospects and higher taxes. Property would be less valuable and so rents might fall, but so would earnings to pay for it with.

I fully expect a 'we should be making cars (or whatever) instead of running banks' type argument, but why is that a choice? Anything else we could do to make up for losing Finance we could do anyway. We had a 3 term Labour government. They were in power for 13 years. If anyone was going to dial back the clock and 'save' Britain by turning it into a low-wage, low value jobs-for-the-boys economy they had the chance. Killing finance first then wondering what to do instead is kind of the wrong way to go about something like that.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#134

Post by ZeroGravitas »

tmaly wrote: post #102

I think this idea that Trump is anti-establishment is a play right out of the Game of Cards show. Look at Obama, he had the Hope and Change rhetoric going, they even gave him a Nobel Peace Prize. What did he actually accomplish? Medical costs are 5x what they were in some cases. The middle east is still in disarray. Police and protesters are clashing. They talk a big game before getting elected, but the reality is th…

Even trying to fix your three examples is fairly impressive for a US politician. Particularly as his opposite numbers (Trump included) run on a platform of intentionally making these things worse.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#135

Post by ZeroGravitas »

didibus wrote: post #39

I recall a study that showed that above average income workers supported Trump at a higher percentage. If that's true, it seems to contradict the whole premise of this article. They should have asked those same Yale grads if they were voting Trump or not.

You're probably thinking of this:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-...

One thing that confounds it is that Hispanic and African-American voters avoid Trump due to his appeals to white supremacy, and they are poorer than average. So if you only count "real Americans" then there may still be some truth in it.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#136

Post by SeanDav »

madaxe_again wrote: post #118
SeanDav wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I have heard this argument used a few times. If you are intelligent, you voted to remain, if you are not intelligent, you voted to leave. So blame lack of intelligence on not getting a vote you wanted, because people that disagree with you must not be intelligent - right?

I'm not sure where you get that from. The leave arguments were emotional, the remain arguments were rational. Emotional arguments always win.

Project Fear from the remain side was rational, was it? George Osborne's "punishment budget" was rational, was it? Attempting to delay the release of NI numbers until after the referendum was rational, was it? Instructing the Civil Service to not help Brexit ministers with EU questions was rational, was it?

There are many rational arguments for both leave and remain, it depends on your point of view. There were many emotional arguments from both sides.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#137

Post by GrayTShirt »

simonh wrote: post #133
ionised wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those same people leech off the public purse in order to bail themselves out of their greedy, malicious fuck ups that end up ruining economies and destroying lives.

Alright, you hate bankers and financiers. I get it. Fair enough, that's your right and I won't argue the point. However London is a global cultural and trade hub entirely due to it's finance industry. Take that away and what does London or Britain have economically? Every single London resident would suffer from that from lower wages, fewer employment prospects and higher taxes. Property would be less valuable and so…

I get where you are coming from. But, the revolving door/lobbyist economy/power concentration needs to be broken before real reform can begin.

This whole thread makes me wonder what the lowest common denominator is. My bet is brains in jars hooked up to virtual reality. Or perhaps we're all just harvested for our organs by the elite like in unwind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9snP4HuRsr4 or turned into AI controlled drones like in Ancillary Justice. I dunno, Bro. The future is bleak, and time is running out to take it back.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#138

Post by yummyfajitas »

icebraining wrote: post #116
yummyfajitas wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 5 tech companies according to a quick Google search -> fortune article are apple, HP, IBM, Amazon and Microsoft. 2 CEOs are people of color (bezos and nacelle) one is gay and one a woman. It's true that Asians are overrepresented in tech. I believe this is, in fact, because more Asians are fit for the job. Do you disagree? Why do you think Asians are overrepresented, and what do you think should be done about…

Bezos is a person of color?

Hispanic is color, right?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#139

Post by yummyfajitas »

rtcensored wrote: post #122
yummyfajitas wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never actually met a tech bro who objected except on HN. Everyone I've met has been fine with economic competition from people unlike them. But I could be wrong - do you have evidence that tech is even remotely as protectionist as the trump/Bernie voting masses? The local elites don't need to compete for CEO jobs with Satya Nadella or Sunder Pichai? That's news to me.

The people you are talking about are either your coworkers or those you've met in a workplace related environment, correct? Management wants to do the best things as quickly and cheaply as possible, and anyone who speaks out about it publicly or to their coworkers would be doing harm to their career. The same is true in any industry. On the factory floor, workers who complain loudly about immigrants working side by s…

By honest, moral and principled, I mean they don't try to exploit politics to screw over their neighbors. They just compete economically. Kind of like the article claims, and mg experience agrees with.

Some people also didn't want to get into a race to the bottom with negros. I think it's perfectly moral to deny lower class whites the right to change their situation by harming the competition.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#140

Post by icebraining »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #138
icebraining wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bezos is a person of color?

Hispanic is color, right?

I suppose, as weird as that sounds to a descendant of Spaniards, but Ted Jorgensen is not Hispanic, as far as I can tell.
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