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BSD vs. Linux (2005)

over-yonder.net

131–140 of 371 posts

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#131
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compression in ZFS doesn't use RAM, dedup tables, the arc and l2arc mapping tables are all that matters with regards to memory usage with ZFS. l2arc is where a lot of newbies end up shooting themselves in the foot, they go toss in a mirrored pair of 512GB SSD's for their l2arc on a system with 32GB of RAM and wonder why performance got worse or it crashed, or they enabled dedup on 24TB of data with 64GB of ram and wo…

Ah crap. The advice I got was just about the opposite - I wanted an L2ARC device in my system for performance. Atom C2758, 32GB ECC RAM, 4x4TB in RAIDZ2 (losing that much storage was painful , and the $1200AUD upgrade path to 4x8TB even more so) with a 128GB SSD as L2ARC. I found out some time later that I probably wanted an SLOG device instead but I'm really too afraid to touch my config. FWIW it's pretty stable on…

Your L2ARC shouldn't be bigger than 5x your system memory, ZFS has to keep mapping tables in-memory to determine where data on the L2ARC is stored, the bigger it gets the more memory you take away from your in-memory ARC, which can lead to worse performance than before since more data is having to come from your much higher-latency and lower bandwidth L2ARC or straight from spinning disks.

RAIDZ is a performance killer right off the bat, I would switch to using mirrored vdev's instead if throughput is an issue for you. Parity calculation kills write speeds, especially on slower CPU's like a C2758, and RAIDZ doesn't give you any extra throughput on reads since there's only one usable copy of a stripe to read from. I have 2x4TB disks in my pool as a mirrored vdev (with an additional 2x3TB coming after I get my 128GB flash drive for XenServer to free up my second 3TB disk again) and I get reads over 500MB/sec using 10Gig-E to my XenServer host, and equally fast writes. Disks are fairly cheap, RAIDZ is not a good solution if you need performance, and if you are using four disks in RAIDZ-2 you would lose the same amount of storage using two mirrored vdev's anyway (and save the increased potential of a rebuild failing due to multiple disk failures that is increasingly common on higher capacity drives).

If writes are a bigger problem for you, then, yes, a SLOG device will help - but any random SSD is not going to do. If you are using a SLOG ZFS expects it will not corrupt in-flight data following a power loss, even a "high-end" SSD like a Samsung 850 Pro or a Crucial MX200 will lose data in the event of a power failure. You also don't want a SLOG that isn't mirrored, if your SLOG is corrupted you just lost your entire pool. In addition you need a SSD with proper power-failure protection like the Intel DC series. Also, large writes skip the SLOG (>64KB) entirely, so if you are bandwidth bound (either from network or to disk) it is not going to help, if you are IOPS bound it can help tremendously.

Also, you mention 4x4TB and 4x8TB, I assume your issue is the available disk bays in your system? I personally ignore high-capacity drives as they are far too expensive, and my HP ML10 that I run FreeNAS off only has 1 internal drive bay (with a $50 add-on I can buy to install an extra 3), instead of dealing with internal drives as well as limited capacity I bought a cheap DAS array (Lenovo SA120, here's a picture of mine and my cheap TP-Link layer 3 switch http://i.imgur.com/eEvtP6Z.jpg) that cost me $200USD and connected it with an equally cheap LSI 9200-8e SAS HBA ($40), I now have 12 hot-swap drive bays and can replace my FreeNAS box without worrying about how many bays it has, if I need more I just need to buy an additional enclosure and daisy chain it off the first. This isn't a dirt cheap solution by any means (my homelab gear is easily worth over $1500 at this point, including my Lenovo TD340 acting as my XenServer host), but it will save you money in the long run by allowing you to easily buy many cheaper drives than fewer more expensive (but high capacity) ones.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Certainly right there with Windows or OSX or anything else. In a lot of cases you don't even need to be very selective, you just need to have a modern machine.

> Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. > If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Maybe the fact that I have to give them time is one of the major problems? You know how much time I invested in getting my Windows and OSX desktops to work flawlessly? Zero.

We're literally talking about a 15 minute setup on a variety of nixes on a wide-range of hardware.

Intel chipsets and their graphics drivers have excellent support out of the box. That goes for everything from refurbished Thinkpads to Chromebooks to used Macbook Pros to new desktops.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#133
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I can appreciate that point of view (i.e. as a vendor), the definition does depend on whose POV you are looking at it from. From an end-user (individual or business) POV, the GPL is absolutely 'freely redistributable' what you're talking about is your inability to limit that ability. That's the GPL doing its job.

> That's the GPL doing its job. It also makes it really hard to earn a living with actual software (not services) that depends on GPL.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. The GPL, and resulting GPL'd software, does not exist for the benefit of commercial software vendors. While some business models are viable under it, that's a side-effect rather than an objective of it.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#134
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux desktops seem to have peaked with GNOME 2.x. I'm not even sure what's going on with Unity. Gnome 2.x is a dead-end - it was buggy and ugly. Gnome 3.x is far better. Unity is just another canonical-outrage.

Would you mind explaining what you mean by outrage? For productivity, Unity beats any Gnome 3 setup I've tried so far. And we're still not talking about the maintenance/security nightmare that is the Gnome 3 plugin system.

By "outrage" I've meant canonical has developed it because they didn't like gnome shell(they like the innovation-thing).

> For productivity, Unity beats any Gnome 3 setup I've tried so far.

Unity has problems with multiple monitors, consumes more RAM and CPU and is also hard to customize.

> And we're still not talking about the maintenance/security nightmare that is the Gnome 3 plugin system.

But we should talk about it if we're here...

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#135
Disclaimer: I know this is a side issue. However, I'm really wondering what it is that makes people think using such a “creative” color scheme for publishing their texts would do any good. If it weren't for Safari's Reader view, I would be physically unable to decipher this text. Which would really be a shame, because this text deserves to be read.

I guess, I'm still hoping that one of these days, I will reach one of those authors and make them understand that the contents is of paramount importance and creative coloring can do nothing but detract (except when you're an expert). If you use your own color scheme, please make sure you know what you're doing.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run a Linux desktop for work (typing on it right now) as a dual-boot with my Windows setup. It is a "modern machine", at least if an i7-6700K and a 980Ti are modern, and I couldn't get X to start with Ubuntu 16.04 LTS. And yet it did with Ubuntu 14.04, which is bizarre. My time is valuable enough that I didn't debug it further than that--if I wanted to light my time on fire I'd just go set up a Hackintosh and have…

Without a bug report, nobody can tell if your case is unique or general. You spend time to rant here but with a bit of additional time, you could have opened a bug report with the appropriate information and maybe help people running into the same problem.

I think it should be obvious that I don't have a reproducible case anymore; this was a couple months ago now, after I built a desktop. Nor am I interested in expending multiple hours creating one, because that doesn't benefit me--my stuff works now, if suboptimally. I couldn't leave it in that state then, because I had work to do with that hardware; I couldn't leave it in a trashed state just in case somebody had questions and needed to autopsy it, now, could I? Expending more time than I did would be better served just biting the bullet and setting up a Hackintosh so I have an environment I like, rather than tolerate.

And this isn't a "rant". I promise you, when I'm ranting, you will know.

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#138
post #86

> I like FreeBSD, and I use it as a server OS and on a NAS box but you only need look at https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics to understand that if the "Linux Desktop" is a joke compared to MacOS and Windows then the "FreeBSD Desktop" is even more so. I've never heard anything good about the "MacOS desktop" and I'm pretty sure that the "windows desktop" is far behind the "linux desktop"(plugins, performance, menus etc.)…

Linux on the desktop is still full of issues that were solved by Windows and Mac a decade ago. Fonts still look like crap (Ubuntu is an exception), and even with patches there are still problems with Java, old GTK libs, etc. I could care less about games, MS Office, a d a lot of other things that are deal breakers for some, but I have tried Linux on the desktop and it is still lacking.

> Fonts still look like crap (Ubuntu is an exception)

You can change|install fonts on linux.

> and even with patches there are still problems with Java, old GTK libs, etc

What kind of problems?

> but I have tried Linux on the desktop and it is still lacking.

Can you tell us what do you miss?

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Certainly right there with Windows or OSX or anything else. In a lot of cases you don't even need to be very selective, you just need to have a modern machine.

> Based on this thread, I'd say the problem is a lot of people haven't given them the time. > If you select your hardware, they work pretty flawlessly. Maybe the fact that I have to give them time is one of the major problems? You know how much time I invested in getting my Windows and OSX desktops to work flawlessly? Zero.

Are you comparing like with like, your Windows & OSX desktops were preinstalled presumably, same price brackets too?

Re: BSD vs. Linux (2005)

#140
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enlighten me - what's the problem with the linux desktops?

For a start, X11's security model. Every X11 application can read all keystrokes, mouse events, do screengrabs of other window's contents, etc. In other words, your browser can snoop on what passwords you type into an X terminal if it wanted to or is compromised.

I.e. X11 working in same way as Windows, OS/2, BeOS, MacOS, OSX, etc.

But in Linux, I can run application in container or VM and then use VNC, RDP, or Spice to connect to it in secure manner.

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