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Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

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Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#131
post #120
post #105

Just a side note: The OPM is adjusted for inflation (set at three times the cost of a minimum food diet in 1963, updated annually for inflation using the Consumer Price Index, see: http://www.irp.wisc.edu/faqs/faq2.htm#official ). So if wages and inflation always increase in sync then there would be no reason for the number of people living in poverty to change (even if their living standards are higher in absolute t…

If you view education as teaching people to learn, then you might have an argument that education rates enable and empower people. If you're training robots who don't think for themselves then you'll encounter the situation you've just described.

Empowerment carries a fairly high risk and if you are already in a poor economic situation, you a very likely to not be able to tolerate it. Plenty of people in good economic standing aren't willing to tolerate it. As such, most people are going to end up choosing the far less risky path of being "robots" anyway.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#132
post #2

I don't really have the time, energy, or knowledge to create a fully cited refutation of the author other than to say that this just seems really wrong. It might not be technically wrong because the author seems to be citing facts and I'm sure they're correct. But it seems wrong in the sense that they're missing the forest for the trees. Between 1991 and 2014 a lot has changed, particularly in the earning power of th…

> It might not be technically wrong because the author seems to be citing facts and I'm sure they're correct You were on the right track in your first sentence. The author is not an academic publishing a paper. He's a political blogger drawing conclusions he wants from handpicked data. This post was not reviewed by anyone and should not be regarded as fact simply because some data was included. In fact, the author wa…

The author was not fired for being incorrect. He was fired for arguing on twitter in a manner that caused negative emotions about his publisher. Implying that this somehow invalidates his argument is a fallacious ad-hominem attack.

Do you have any concrete arguments against his conclusions?

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

correlation is not causation. Could another likely argument be that poverty creates more stress on a relationship and it's the other way around? poverty causes relationship problems? Also, minimum wage doesn't cover child care, so what's the point in having one partner working when it doesn't make economic sense?

That's a possible argument but it seems unlikely. If true, then a poor nation like India should have low marriage rates while a super rich one like the US should have high marriage rates. By Indian standards, everyone (including our very poor) is quite wealthy, so why do Indians do such a good job at getting and staying married while we don't? Compare also marriage rates and wealth over time - in the 50's marriage wa…

I doubt one would ever be able to account for all the variables when comparing disparate cultures to try to determine causality on one issue.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#134
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might say that there is a point of diminishing returns, and the U.S. has reached it while many developing countries haven't. Exactly where that point is, seems to be a function of how many highly educated people a country can produce vs. how many jobs it can create. 100K new doctors and engineers, with 100K new jobs for them? Wonderful! But what if you only had 20K new jobs? Now you're in trouble. Instead of trea…

>One might say that there is a point of diminishing returns, and the U.S. has reached it while many developing countries haven't. I'm skeptical, given that the population-wide baseline of knowledge in the USA isn't actually that high. When the subject comes up, we hear that other countries teach their high-school kids calculus, linear algebra, and real physics.

Those uneducated people are also the same ones increasingly out of work in this country today. And we 'encourage' the brightest of those children from other countries to move here (yes, not exactly what happens with H1-B, but still). I tend to agree with above poster that it'd be nice if there was substantive analysis done on the current situation.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and now we need half as many cabbage farmers, which means that half those people doing manual labor can do something else, which in turn makes the economy more productive either way, you get more of something in the economy, even if it's not money for those in poverty. in this case, it'd likely lead to food becoming cheaper and more people being able to eat I fail to see how education hasn't benefited those in need i…

Except we're now leading to one of the major problems in the current US economy: we now have too many workers, and not enough jobs, due to the large scale improvements in efficiency since the end of WW2. So, we're back to what started this: people are going to school, getting education, and now they're working as the local McD's night shift manager with a masters in their pocket. Making better workers only helps if t…

We definitively do NOT have "too many workers". There are millions of jobs out there which are simply not getting done due to lack of a worker willing/able to do them, or due to regulations making the job illegal.

https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2016/robots_didnt_take_ou...

We have "not enough jobs" when everyone who wants one has a butler, maid, cook and driver. (Or butlerbot, cleaning bot, autocook 2000 and self driving car.) That's not the world we live in today.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

correlation is not causation. Could another likely argument be that poverty creates more stress on a relationship and it's the other way around? poverty causes relationship problems? Also, minimum wage doesn't cover child care, so what's the point in having one partner working when it doesn't make economic sense?

That's a possible argument but it seems unlikely. If true, then a poor nation like India should have low marriage rates while a super rich one like the US should have high marriage rates. By Indian standards, everyone (including our very poor) is quite wealthy, so why do Indians do such a good job at getting and staying married while we don't? Compare also marriage rates and wealth over time - in the 50's marriage wa…

Two related points:

- 'Poverty' is (mostly) relative; as you point out, almost all of the even the poorest in the US are rich in comparison to the poor in other countries; and the poorest in the world today are relatively rich compared to the poor (and even not-poor) in the past. - It is illegal, inconvenient, and low-status to live or try to live, in the US, as the poor in India, or other poorer countries, do; e.g. authorities will evict tenants living in illegal housing (and prosecute their landlords), almost no one brings their small children to work with them, building/labor/etc. standards are much more stringent legally (and culturally).

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#137

Family structure is actually huge when talking about poverty. First, poverty statistics comparing 1950 to today are more complex than they appear since the marriage rate has dropped a lot. There are more single-income households, so the average household income looks different though income might not have changed all that much. Second there is a very strong correlation between marriage rates in neighborhoods and pove…

I would agree that family structure plays a huge part. Kids are expensive and take a lot of energy. As much as we as a society celebrate single moms, it's a tough gig to work full time and raise your kids alone. I don't think anyone would say it's the ideal family situation.

One reason the marriage rate may be is dropping is that it's become fairly disincentivized for men. A lot of younger men (25-35) I know voice concerns like the ones listed in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoXQf2f2Yxo

Perhaps if they were to make marriage and custody laws more fair it would help the rates increase.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except we're now leading to one of the major problems in the current US economy: we now have too many workers, and not enough jobs, due to the large scale improvements in efficiency since the end of WW2. So, we're back to what started this: people are going to school, getting education, and now they're working as the local McD's night shift manager with a masters in their pocket. Making better workers only helps if t…

We definitively do NOT have "too many workers". There are millions of jobs out there which are simply not getting done due to lack of a worker willing/able to do them, or due to regulations making the job illegal. https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2016/robots_didnt_take_ou... We have "not enough jobs" when everyone who wants one has a butler, maid, cook and driver. (Or butlerbot, cleaning bot, autocook 2000 and self…

Not every "job" is a job. I would totally pay someone $0.01 per hour to clean my house each day.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#139
I am surprised by how many people fundamentally misunderstand the authors point. Surely he knows that a well educated workforce is important for an economy.

However what the author is addressing is this naive belief that education almost exclusively can solve poverty problems. This is the idea which has been thrown around for years. Governments, economists etc have focused far too much on presenting statistics showing the benefits of education in general without any concern for what people actually learn or whether there is ever a potential for just spending too much time on education.

As someone who has believed for years we are over-educating our people in the west, I've generally felt a complete dismissal of this opinion. Education helps! End of discussion, is the feeling I sense.

If you care to look it is pretty clear that the education hysteria has gone off the rails. Jobs people could perfectly well do with high school education, now requires a bachelor. Suddenly a master is a requirement where usually a bachelors degree would be sufficient. We have come to believe learning only happens in school. That is where I think we are going wrong.

My mother is a journalist and never took more than high school education. Yet she is a very accomplished journalist which knows a lot about her field. Today it is next to impossible to become a journalist without having lots of education, often multiple degrees.

A software developer with a Bachlor and two years of work experience doesn't know less than a student fresh out of a Master program. They just know different stuff.

What the people need to get out of poverty is relevant skills for the economy, but that is not a game of making sure your country has ever higher percentages of college graduates. Switzerland is a case in point. It is a high tech economy with some of the lowest level of college education. How can this be? Because in Switzerland almost anything can be learned through vocational training programs. Massive amounts of learning is happening in a sophisticated private enterprise. That just doesn't show up on the kind of statistics politicians obsesses about.

We don't need more education. We need education far better aligned with the needs of the economy and private enterprise. We also need to make it accessible people at all rungs of society.

X number of years of education in the US is not going to help when so many schools in poor areas of America are exceptionally bad. There is no mystery to this. America is the only advance country where the bulk of education spending goes to the well of rather than the needy. This is through the American tradition requiring students to go to their school district and tying funding to property taxes as well as relying on substantial amounts of fundraising by parents.

It is a bit late to start handing out scholarships for poor but talented students when they reach college age. The damage has already been done. You got to start thinking education from the very first years.

Re: Why Education Does Not Fix Poverty (2015)

#140

I disagree with this article. Education can fix poverty, but only if that education is responsible. Meaning: avoiding for-profit colleges and getting a degree in something competitive. So much of college today is debt-loading with classes students don't need, don't want, and shouldn't have to take. So long as universities treat students as cash machines, instead of humans seeking empowerment through education, we wil…

You're not addressing what seems to me to be the most significant part of the OP's argument. Getting dropouts to get high school diploma's should be the biggest win - and isn't related to college degree choice or business models. Yet it looks to have been the biggest loser.
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