Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#131

Post by dade_ » Mon, May 23, 2016, 11:58 AM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #15

Spooky23 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too bad about the Volt. I drove one a few times... It isn't a terrible car at all, and bypasses the gaping flaws in a pure electric vehicle.

What's too bad about the Volt? I may be about to buy one of the new ones. The 2016 model has better electric range and looks better too.

They are great cars, nice and quiet, very comfortable seats, good performance, full set of options (no self driving) and GM offers excellent warranty coverage. Puritans don't like the hybrid part, but the simple fact is that there isn't sufficient charging infrastructure to support pure EV cars in most places and certainly if I take a trip into the country I won't be able to charge it for the trip back, but can easily refuel. They do increase demand for power plugs at employers, residential buildings, shopping centres, etc so I think they help the cause and improve the practicality of pure EV vehicles. Take one for a test drive, my favourite comment is, "Oh, these are actually nice." There is enough EV trashing going on as it is, some people would do well to actually put some thought into their opinions before sharing them.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#132

Post by kamjam » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:06 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #126

kamjam wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was living in Montreal for a couple of years I signed up to a community car share scheme. No insurance, no maintenance, no road taxes so it worked out cheaper to "rent a car" just when I needed it: https://www.communauto.com/index_en.html With a good, cheap, reliable public transport system with this as backup I could easily get rid of my car if I lived in an urban area but still needed to get around at the we…

That's what I don't get about 'car sharing'. Everybody wants the car on the weekend. If the service has to have enough cars for everybody, what's the difference between that and leasing/owning? It doesn't save on cars that's for sure.

In my experience of using the service, and Montreal is a much smaller city than London (where I am from), you don't want a car every weekend. I was usually able to find a car for hire as long as I booked in advance (esp for Bank Holiday type weekends) but sometimes it meant going to a different location than the one right next to me. As the system get's more popular and more people use it then they are able to purchase more cars.

> It doesn't save on cars that's for sure

I disagree. Several of my friends also used the service, just between us that saved having several cars. If you need a car all weekend, every weekend then the service is probably not for you. But if, like me, you needed it every so often then it saved a lot of money over the course of a year.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#133

Post by adwn » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:22 PM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #38

pcr0 wrote: post #18

I'm all for electric vehicles, but there are a few things that have bothered me about its mass adoption. Right now, electrics comprise a tiny part of the automobile market share. Yet Tesla is already running into supply issues, particularly with lithium as there are only 3 companies in the world that do industrial-scale lithium mining, that too in a handful of mines around the world. Secondly, I suppose we're current…

This is a real problem and a real concern. An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled. There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawa…

> arguably the ultimate definition of cost is energy requirements

No, it's not. The ultimate causes for costs are human labor and taxes (including similar concepts like rent or license fees) – everything else derives from that.

You're not paying the Sun for its energy output, but the workers that mine the materials, process them, and build solar panels.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#134

Post by Xylakant » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:23 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #126

kamjam wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was living in Montreal for a couple of years I signed up to a community car share scheme. No insurance, no maintenance, no road taxes so it worked out cheaper to "rent a car" just when I needed it: https://www.communauto.com/index_en.html With a good, cheap, reliable public transport system with this as backup I could easily get rid of my car if I lived in an urban area but still needed to get around at the we…

That's what I don't get about 'car sharing'. Everybody wants the car on the weekend. If the service has to have enough cars for everybody, what's the difference between that and leasing/owning? It doesn't save on cars that's for sure.

I doubt that everybody needs a car on the weekend: People that want the car to go to work are actually less likely to need a car on the weekend. However, even if we concede the point that everybody want a car on the weekend, there's still the question of whether everybody needs a car on the weekend at exactly the same time. Given that most parking spots on my street are still full at any given time during the weekend, I doubt that.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#135

Post by DugFin » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:26 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #92

trhway wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

another one is potassium, and giving that the future is metal-air batteries, potassium works great there (its oxide seems to behave better for recharging in that scheme than lithium's) Wrt. possible short-term lithium supply issues, i can see how Musk would just build a new mine operation if necessary, like a Giga-ship to mine it from seawater :)

I wonder what the hurdles are to private nuclear reactor ownership?

Most of the power generation reactors in the US are privately owned, so probably about the same.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#136

Post by gambiting » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:34 PM UTC

Thlom wrote: post #114

skrause wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live (in a dense German city) there wouldn't even be space at the roadside to install charging points; even the street lights are attachted to the houses because there was no space left. I have the same situation at work, so personally have a difficult time imagining to own an electric car anytime soon.

On the other hand,car ownership in dense urban areas shouldn't be the norm. The future is also in active transport (walking, cycling) and transit, not only electric cars.

As someone who comes from a place in the world that can see -30C in winter, I disagree. For 2-3 months of the year cars(and in cities buses) are the only way to travel anywhere.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#137

Post by gambiting » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:39 PM UTC

tirant wrote: post #129

mantas wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you want a car for hobbies (e.g. getting to backcountry) or transporting your kids around, you shouldn't live in an urban area?

If you only use it a couple of times a month, it would be cheaper to rent one than to own one.

If you are over 26 then maybe....at least in the UK if you are younger than 26 you have to pay a MASSIVE young driver surcharge(a car can cost 30 pounds/day to rent, but a young driver surcharge can be 100 pounds/day). It's literally cheaper to lease, a brand new Citroen C1 will cost you 100 pounds/month + ~80/month in insurance. The car is new so whatever goes wrong with it you are covered, you just have to put petrol in it.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#138

Post by dzhiurgis » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:42 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #112

dredmorbius wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real problem and a real concern. An EV essentially is a car with a very expensive fuel tank (the battery), made out of specific materials and properties. While it is efficient in energy use and can make use of fungible electricity, lithium is rare, limited to specific areas of concentration, and can (as any material) only be partially recycled. There's lithium elsewhere on Earth, or more precisely, in seawa…

The saudi oil minister said that if everyone in the world had as many cars as the US, then they wouldn't have enough oil. So that's a very aggressive yardstick you're setting for EVs. It would be much more sensible to electrify the cars/busses/trucks/delivery vans that are driven a lot, that are driven in stop-start traffic, and that are driven in heavily populated areas first. That gives you much more bang-per-buck…

Don't forget noise pollution.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#139

Post by hjnilsson » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:48 PM UTC

verytrivial wrote: post #111

throwaway049 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We would probably solve that by putting up more charging points at the roadside (there are quite a few of these around already in the UK), with a card reader for payment or perhaps a payment chip within the car's charging connector.

I can't see people liking that. Charging at home works because you can sleep while it happens. Road side charging takes time away from some other part of your waking day. Wikipedia is saying 40 minutes for an 80% super charge for a Tesla. That's a sizable chunk of time to be loitering at some random location.

At least here in Oslo, there are charging stations on every other street in the city center ( https://m.ladestasjoner.no/map ). You need to park anyways, and parking beside a charging pole will not take any more time than just street parking in general, as the number of electric vehicles increase I would expect there to be poles everywhere.

And if you live outside the center. Where there are no poles, can have a driveway with charging or use your block's parking garage.

Re: Electric cars are no longer held back by crappy, expensive batteries

#140

Post by contingencies » Mon, May 23, 2016, 12:49 PM UTC

The reality here in second-tier Chinese cities is that most people already get around, if not always then at least often, by electric vehicle.

They've either never had cars, have bought cars but have problems parking them or getting anywhere due to traffic (many cities were not designed for cars, and now have millions of them clogging every available space on and off the road network), or just jump on the back of black-market 'taxi' e-bikes to zip about. E-bikes already carry a large proportion of people in Chinese urban environments. There is no way that e-bikes, subways and buses combined are not the dominant people-movers in the country, today. While I did see some e-bikes in Japan, they were nowhere near as numerous. China is leading the way.

Typical Chinese e-bike cost new is USD$500 or less. Battery replacement (good for 1 year or so) is currently about USD$150 or less. They do get stolen a lot, unfortunately.