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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#131
post #92

The Fed engineers a slow inflation every year via interest rate control and gives the benefit of the newly created money to banks, the loan borrowers, and asset holders as rates lower than keeping inflation at zero. Since the money supply increases anyway, might as well give the new money as basic income to ALL people. At least the money will be spent directly by the people for economic activities, instead of indirec…

The benefit is not given to the banks - the money is added through asset purchases on open market sales. The Fed owns more assets (usually Treasuries) and the bank has cash. If you want to get in on it, buy Treasuries.

Next, the Fed avoid targeting zero inflation, because it's currently impossible to hit that number so exactly, and they desire to avoid deflationary spirals. The past 150 years has shown across hundreds of countries that the current solution is vastly better than the boom and bust cycles previous, and has also demonstrated the benefit of fiat over commodity (like gold). There are ample papers showing this in the econ literature, and is the primary reason not a single country tries to use previous methods.

Next, new money is added through asset purchases, not giveaways, so it's erroneous to think this money can just be handed to individuals as cash, unless perhaps those individuals were selling assets to the Fed of equal value.

Next, the target is usually around 2%, and the money supply is around 2T, resulting in 400B a year, or, 2K a year per adult, which is nice, but hardly a basic income. It's more like a tax break. It's hardly going to change wealth transfers, since most people will just consume it, and the wealth would go back to companies, mostly the ones you decry above.

Finally, when the Fed targets low inflation, that would dry up the basic income, and I don't think giving people such a variable and uncertain income would do well for planning and stability. Soon people would clamor and elect politicians that guaranteed the Fed would pay X per year, defeating the entire mechanism the Fed uses to stabilize markets.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#132
post #75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is the point, there will be too many people "that can't work" due to tech innovations. It all makes sense if you think about welfare not as "these slouches are rewarded for the laziness" but as a price you pay so that unemployed people are not forced into violent property expropriation from you. When large swaths of population don't have an access to money-making jobs, it significantly affects middle cla…

The "get yours" mentality is flawed because all you end up doing is imprisoning large sections of the population for poverty-driven crime, and you end up paying for their imprisonment. What do prisoners get while in prison? Basic necessities, like food, shelter, warmth. A kind of basic income, if you will.

Basic income except the rich and powerful cannot stop outside their home?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#133
post #4

> Switzerland will hold a June 5 referendum on whether to give every adult citizen 2,500 Swiss francs (about $2,600) a month. Yeah and, for sure, it won't pass... considering how conservative we are, plus the legal side of the proposal is not so clear in where the money will come from.

Well, holding a referendum in Switzerland means 100k citizens agree to put it up for referendum, nothing more, nothing less.

It's not some kind of endorsement of it as a good or feasible idea, unfortunately. As you point out, most pro basic-income people I've talked with here tend to hand-wave the "how do we pay for it" question as "implementation detail" or some idealistic rhetoric ("tax the rich more!") which is not encouraging me to vote in favor.

I would be happy to give my vote to a proposal that included a budget proposition, or a rational analysis of feasibility. The current one doesn't (http://initiative-revenudebase.ch/initiative/)

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#134
Negative. Those with money will fight like hell to keep from giving it up. However if by some chance/miracle a guaranteed income is ever instituted, it will become a political football, as politicians and advocacy groups seek to continuously push it higher and higher. Instead of a money handout, I would rather support money in exchange for public works and service. I don't believe handouts without some kind of exchange will ever really work.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#135
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and how do you stop companies from hiking prices to absorb it?

Purchasing power will still be increased through imports.

Until the BI is implemented in those countries, and the companies there have to increase the prices.

That just brings another problem. You will have two kind of countries: some with BI and some without BI. How are you going to convince the people from the countries without BI not to move to a country with BI?

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#136

I think the idea of a basic income is really interesting though one aspect of it troubles me and I would be interested to hear HN's solutions to it. The trouble lies in the creative and economic relationship. If a substantial number of people reduce or stop their usual working hours and live off the income to pursue entirely creative activities, such as making a website or art, they are exempt from the usual capitali…

[deleted]

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#137

I think the idea of a basic income is really interesting though one aspect of it troubles me and I would be interested to hear HN's solutions to it. The trouble lies in the creative and economic relationship. If a substantial number of people reduce or stop their usual working hours and live off the income to pursue entirely creative activities, such as making a website or art, they are exempt from the usual capitali…

>This could mean a substantial number of people are neither creating wealth through work or taxable business.

How is this any different than what we have currently? It could be argued that many employed persons are currently destroying wealth through unethical practices encouraged by profit/rent seeking that is prevalent in contemporary economy.

A basic income as you have noted will also allow for people to open 'good businesses' without as much of a pressure to turn a profit. Ideally society would start to look down upon the "I work for 's people/companies because I need to pay the bills" attitude that is pervasive today and people would start taking their responsibilities to themselves, their community and our greater environment more seriously.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced it will even provide the basics. There would be nothing to stop rents / real-estate prices from going up to compensate. Or food, or utilities. It's simple supply and demand.

Basic income would not significantly increase the demand for food or accommodation. How does "simple supply and demand" work in this case?

If a baker can make the same amount of money not working thanks to basic income, it follows logically that you have to pay him/her more to stay and work, which increases the cost of bread for everyone. So now you have more money to spend but everything went up in price.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#139
post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

You sound really afraid of having to collect your own waste.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#140
Although I advocate the empowerment of the impoverished, this looks like a very fundamentally flawed idea that would actually harm those it sets out to help. We need a different approach.

When you give everyone in the economy a $10000 basic income you drive demand without driving supply. This graph[1] demonstrates how we estimate the relationship between the two, as well as price. As you'll notice, an increase in demand without an associated increase in supply results in an increase in prices. Essentially we might expect that over time the $10000, with market forces as the causation, will become the new N=0 point. Your basic salary becomes worthless. Any economic freedoms that you have created are fleeting in nature.

A stricter socialist approach seems to be the better one: instead of investing that money into people's pockets, you invest it in job creation in services that assist these people. For example: aggressive funding of soup kitchens. The poorest of the poorest might not have money in their pockets, but it might be possible to provide even advanced (e.g. internet) services to them in such a way that they don't require money. This solution conveys no economic freedom - an ingredient for misery.

Point is: I don't know and honestly, we don't know.

Helping the impoverished is one of the most important goals of our race; but racing into poorly thought out solutions might result in the impoverished being no better off in the long run. I'd love to hear some counterarguments because the basic salary, at least superficially, has the attractive quality of being simple to implement.

[1]: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Su...

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