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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#131

Post by Grishnakh »

switch007 wrote: post #115
JPKab wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

It wasn't "slightly less", it was many, many times less. And there was no reason for it; it was entirely possible to engineer the vehicles to use the proper amount of AdBlue to keep the emissions within spec, they just wouldn't have been able to go 10,000 miles between refills.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#132

Post by alva »

Respect to Greenpeace for sourcing and distributing these. They tend to get a good amount of news coverage. The more organisations that get involved in this, the more pressure we can place on our respective governments.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#133

Post by themartorana »

pmontra wrote: post #69
mark_l_watson wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I was not surprised that President Obama waded in on the British EU exit referendum. This issue is not of much importance to US citizens, but it is very important to the one world government movement. Off topic, but: I find it sad but amusing when my friends argue about democrats vs. republicans; both parties serve their 'people', the corporations.

I was surprised because it goes against the principle of divide et impera. Apparently a divided Europe makes it easier for the USA and China to do whatever they want, and Russia too. Unless the EU with a skeptical UK is worse off than without it. But I see your point. It's not American interests against European ones. It's to prevent a secession in a geographical space more and more dominated by some corporations and…

Well, yeah, until you lock them all into the same cage. Then who cares how many per cage there are.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#134

Post by astazangasta »

kspaans wrote: post #125
RobertoG wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

> 4. The conversations happen in secret. Not commenting on any other aspects of TTIP, but they happen in secret for a reason.[0][1][2] Most trade negotiations are secret too, and if the whole process was public there would be too much bikeshedding and pressure on the negotiators. EDIT: forgot to include a TL;DR summary of why they are secret. Fixed NPR link 0 - http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/e…

I fucking hate these arguments, that "we need secrecy to negotiate effectively". The problem is, the negotiations are "effective" on behalf of corporations, not the public. Yes, they happen in secret for a reason, but that's not a reason we're bound to respect.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#135

Post by themartorana »

Bombthecat wrote: post #64
tdkl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corporations have hijacked the US government years ago it was always only the matter of time that they'll spread to EU. What saddens me more is that the cucked EU will let them, forgetting all the achievements this continent has to offer.

How else do you want to compete with Korea, China and Japan with there cheap workforce. There is no other than to dump down massively on social nets and wages.

Their work forces are increasing in cost. Savings are starting to shrink.

http://fortune.com/2015/08/27/tech-manufacturing-relocation/

Re: TTIP Leaks

#136

Post by vasilipupkin »

maxxxxx wrote: post #119
vasilipupkin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

I know Germany benefits big time from exports. But the benefits have stopped going to the workers. Like in the US wages are stagnating while the "economy" supposedly is doing well.

Really? How do you think Germany gets resources to pay for all the social benefits, pensions etc. if you think growth has stopped, then measures to raise it are a good thing

Re: TTIP Leaks

#137

Post by vasilipupkin »

gech wrote: post #124
vasilipupkin wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

" should make regular Germans better off " Please define a metric that we can use to establish this.

gdp per capita growth as well as sustainable financial situation so that German state can meet its social obligations without a fiscal crisis like in Greece

Re: TTIP Leaks

#138

Post by Grishnakh »

richmarr wrote: post #84
jcfrei wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, just to be clear: I'm not an advocate for TTIP.

Not sure where you're from, but it's hard to imagine a rational basis for the European public to be an advocate of it. My understanding of TTIP and TPP are that they're the US's last ditch attempt to standardise international trade along US lines before China overtakes and starts to set the tone. On that basis they kinda make sense from a US perspective. From an EU perspective not so much. (edit: not saying the US ha…

And in theory, this is actually a really good idea, and something the Western nations should be doing. China's human rights and environment records are abysmal. It would be to the advantage of western nations to be more unified for their common benefit, and force China to catch up. However the TTIP/TPP are going the wrong way: they're trying to water down or eliminate environmental and consumer protections in favor of large corporations' profits. In other words, they're trying to lower the bar rather than to raise it as they should be.

We really could use a standardized international trade treaty, but it has to be done in the open, and with input from more parties than just big corporations interested only in their profits, it needs input from environmental groups, workers' groups/unions, consumer rights advocates, food-safety organizations, etc.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#139

Post by jsprogrammer »

kspaans wrote: post #125
RobertoG wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

> 4. The conversations happen in secret. Not commenting on any other aspects of TTIP, but they happen in secret for a reason.[0][1][2] Most trade negotiations are secret too, and if the whole process was public there would be too much bikeshedding and pressure on the negotiators. EDIT: forgot to include a TL;DR summary of why they are secret. Fixed NPR link 0 - http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/e…

The first link doesn't even discuss secrecy, unless the implicit reason is, "because negotiator's lie".

Re: TTIP Leaks

#140

Post by jethro_tell »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #109
maxxxxx wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore. TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No oth…

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

The most likely outcome of this is that exports are sold at the price they are at now, not cheaper. The workers are paid the same as they are now, (which is the market rate). And the difference in what's normal and cost savings from TTIP will go to company bottom line. And the top officers at the company will collect a performance bonus.

The unlikely scenario is that the price comes down and more units are sold and/or the difference in export costs is divided between the workers to pay them above market rate.

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