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Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

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Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> despite the lack of appreciable results. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics

Anything that is subsidized to the level that solar has been will grow until the subsidies end or are reduced. If pedal power were subsidized in this fashion, not only would the power-generating stationary bike industry explode, but American obesity rates would plummet - right up until the subsidy ended. Solar would continue to grow if it were economically viable on its own. It's getting closer and I hope it gets the…

What would the economic viability of oil look like without the massive subsidies the industry reeceives every year, including the construction of infrastructure that favors transportation predicated on cheap oil over everything else?

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#132
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?

I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land. Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water. For reasons I don't understand, the "property rights and personal freedom" crowd usually (though certainly not always) thinks the freedom to pollute outweighs the freedom not to have your property polluted.

> I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land.

Yet drilling an oil well is currently illegal on a lot of private land in the US.

> Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water.

Air and water pollution are regulated separately by another group. I don't have any problem with this kind of regulation unless it gets out of hand (classifying CO2 as pollution for example).

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#133
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least some of the activism is motivated by fear, when people notice this or that smaller problem, get very scared by warnings of much bigger problems to come, and make the not-completely-rational choice to give up freedom for the promise of safety. " And just what "freedoms" are we talking about here? Please elaborate so we can mock your argument a little more thoroughly. -----

The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?

In this country, you can't do that without a drilling permit, because of several concerns:

1. Soil subsidence. 2. The well casing can break, causing migration of oil, gas, and other pollutants to neighboring wells. 3. You over-pumping your well, drawing oil from under neighboring lands. 4. Releases of gas and natural gas liquids into the air.

So now if instead of having to comply with intense drilling regulation about drilling, owing to the rights of other citizens, you are told not to drill at all, this makes our country an authoritarian tyranny?

Can you try offering an argument that passes the giggle test?

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#134
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting environmentally friendly legislation is orthogonal to the economic concerns that divide the left and right. It's true that environmentalists are associated with the left in the US, but that's not true everywhere in the world.

Got a good example of this? Every policy I've seen relating to reducing emissions involves higher taxes and redistribution of wealth by a bigger government. Environmentally friendly legislation can be a bit more diverse but that doesn't really exist now, emissions is all people discuss.

The Chinese communist party is only recently starting to care about air pollution, and the Front National (France's far right party) has an environmental platform.

Historically, the Republican Party gave us the National Park System and the Clean Air Act, and Soviet officials thought green air around factories was a sign of progress.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#135
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least some of the activism is motivated by fear, when people notice this or that smaller problem, get very scared by warnings of much bigger problems to come, and make the not-completely-rational choice to give up freedom for the promise of safety. " And just what "freedoms" are we talking about here? Please elaborate so we can mock your argument a little more thoroughly. -----

The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?

>The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example.

Just because a plot of land is in the name of someone doesn't give them the right to harm others.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#136
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting environmentally friendly legislation is orthogonal to the economic concerns that divide the left and right. It's true that environmentalists are associated with the left in the US, but that's not true everywhere in the world.

And therein lies the problem. In the US, one cannot support politicians that will be amenable to reasonable, environmentally friendly legislation without embracing leftist economic ideologies as well. That said, once again I think HN is not the place to discuss or voice support for specific political views one way or the other. There are plenty of fact-based, scientific discussions to be had on this topic.

My point was that you were the first one to bring up any particular political affiliation. There are Republicans who support environmental protection, like John McCain in his 2008 bid for president. If the OP is conservative, he might follow the advice you were responding to by lobbying for changes to the Republican Party platform.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize the situation in either of those ways. I think we could all agree that non-renewable energy sources will run out at some point. Hence the name :). Or, to be more precise, the extraction of non-renewables will cost more than their utility. So, at some point we have to transition: first to a mix, and eventually to renewables only. I would venture that we could also agree that those who make thei…

OK, first of all I appreciate the thoughtful response. I agree that the necessary transition from scarce hydrocarbons to something else, whenever that happens, is not likely to be totally pain-free. One of the traditional problems with markets is the turbulence that happens around these big paradigm shifts. America is in the middle of one right now as we transition to an information-based economy. I don't agree that…

Well, just to be clear: I believe that in the same way my freedom to swing my fist ends at your nose, my freedom to pollute ends at the boundary of my property. There are still a lot of externalities that are not born by those that incur them or profit from them. This is a market inefficiency. History has shown that there are plenty of people who are willing to profit in the short term and ignore such externalities, and who will fight hard to avoid paying for any large scale pollution problems. There are many examples.

That is why it is necessary to put the burden of proof on the industry. That's why I see regulation as being a necessary evil. That is why a ban on fracking in NY is fine (in my opinion) - in the big picture, it shouldn't matter. If fracking is OK, time will tell and the ban will be removed. The gas can only be removed once, so who cares when? The companies are big enough to focus elsewhere in the meantime.

In the US, the Citizens United vs FEC case ensured that much money can be spent on influencing the government. Much more money has been spent by the fossil fuel lobby than the renewables lobby - they have more money to spend. I don't doubt for a second that they are slowing down the shift to renewables as much as they can. It's happening right now, and it is real. This is normal, and expected, and according to the rules. I don't expect them to act outside their own significant interests. However, I think that it is not in the best long-term interests of humanity and I am willing to tolerate some ineptitude and over-regulation to shift the balance.

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#138
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?

In this country, you can't do that without a drilling permit, because of several concerns: 1. Soil subsidence. 2. The well casing can break, causing migration of oil, gas, and other pollutants to neighboring wells. 3. You over-pumping your well, drawing oil from under neighboring lands. 4. Releases of gas and natural gas liquids into the air. So now if instead of having to comply with intense drilling regulation abou…

You acknowledge that in NY land owners were previously allowed to obtain a drilling permit after following the proper procedure, and this freedom has been taken away?

Re: Climate-Related Death of Coral Around World Alarms Scientists

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this country, you can't do that without a drilling permit, because of several concerns: 1. Soil subsidence. 2. The well casing can break, causing migration of oil, gas, and other pollutants to neighboring wells. 3. You over-pumping your well, drawing oil from under neighboring lands. 4. Releases of gas and natural gas liquids into the air. So now if instead of having to comply with intense drilling regulation abou…

You acknowledge that in NY land owners were previously allowed to obtain a drilling permit after following the proper procedure, and this freedom has been taken away?

The freedom to drill wells both for fossil fuels and for water is regulated for legitimate reasons, and can sometimes be taken away when new concerns arise. (E.g. fracking fluid mishandling incidents, bad well casings, earthquakes, et cetera.)

Again, try to explain why this turns our country into an authoritarian hellhole, and try to do it in a fashion that passes the giggle test.

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