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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#131

Post by return0 »

sydneysider wrote: post #34
matt4077 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

Turkey, unlike most of the middle east in the news, descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman). The culture is not far different from Greek. There is a regression to islamism with erdogan, but i don't think that's a permanent thing now. There is definitely some racism here.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#132

Post by supremeanger »

jimbokun wrote: post #111
gkya wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

A preview of what's in store if the U.S. somehow manages to elect Trump.

Its not Trump that you should be so concerned with but rather the current safe-space culture of colleges. That will be a greater threat to free speech in the coming years than anything you will see from Trump

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#133

Post by alexandrerond »

I'm always wondering, how does a country that venerates Atatürk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) and was concious of the values around which he built modern Turkey, can retrace its steps back and undo all that took so much effort to get.

Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way before many others). Now we see a country which has drifted towards the most rancid nationalism and authoritarianism.

It's a pity really. Turkey enjoys so many geographical and cultural advantages (being the door between Europe and Asia), that had it steered towards the modern democracy path by keeping Atatürk's legacy alive, it would have easily become a notable member of the EU and a major player in the stability of the region.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#134

Post by egeozcan »

dracht wrote: post #117
cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

>That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Despite being here for decades they have made no effort to assimilate, in contrast to some other groups. 40% (!) of Moroccan youths has a criminal record. They speak poor Dutch. They don't consider themselves Dutch. Let us not pretend the effect was the cause.

So you are suggesting that they have it in their genes? Such a wonderful way to approach immigrants. /s

Also, same arguments have been brought up against Turkish, Romanian and many other large group of immigrant in other countries. It also has a name: Racism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_cau...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#135

Post by gkya »

erikb wrote: post #85

Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? I can't beli…

> Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that?

Yes, that in fact, minus the strong opposition. His power is not that big, but the conjecture allows him to keep on: The three strong opposition parties cannot form an alliance against his. See my other comments.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#136

Post by Grishnakh »

gkya wrote: post #78
gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

>There was a guy who reported his own wife because she spoke pejoratively about Erdogan.

What are divorce laws like in Turkey? I'm betting this guy just wanted to get rid of his wife, and found this to be a convenient way to do so.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#137

Post by Grishnakh »

justsaysmthng wrote: post #70
gokhan wrote: post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

Erdogan showed his face to the world (or at least to me) when police violently dispersed the Gezi Park protesters in 2013. I suspect that the situation in Turkey only got worse since then and now the terrible terrorist attacks only add fuel to the police state's fire. And Europe is helpless as it braces for the massive waves of immigrants coming its way, with Turkey winning big political concessions in exchange for "…

>Corruption is growing all over the world and these types of leaders are consequences of that.

Don't worry, we'll join those other countries later this year when we elect our own queen of corruption, Hillary.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#138

Post by jakub_h »

return0 wrote: post #131
sydneysider wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

Turkey, unlike most of the middle east in the news, descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman). The culture is not far different from Greek. There is a regression to islamism with erdogan, but i don't think that's a permanent thing now. There is definitely some racism here.

> "descends from a multicultural, religiously tolerant empire (Ottoman)"

Where the terms "multicultural" and "religiously tolerant" apparently mean something quite a bit different from today (just like Athenian democracy from ours, for example).

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#139

Post by hartator »

gkya wrote: post #123
studentrob wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press It hurts your country's ability to leverage foreign minds when you begin to censor the outside world. Plus, with the internet, censorship becomes really impractical. China and North Korea don't do this completely successfully and they spend a lot of effort to keep their citizens on some form of lock down. So not only do you end up missing out on the collecti…

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks.

Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't.

For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly different of what's happening in Turkey.

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