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Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#131

Post by ohyeshedid »

rev_bird wrote: post #128
ohyeshedid wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little over 91 million in fines over a year. Apple has over 200 billion in cash on hand. They can ride those fines for quite awhile. Also, there won't be any anti-encryption laws. The risk is backdoor encryption across the board, which could have very similar outcome but isn't what's at stake here.

>They can ride those fines for quite awhile. They could , but they're still a publicly traded company. I wouldn't hold it against a board that wasn't OK with spending $250,000 a day on a principle, but I'd be mad as hell at the people collecting the fine.

I agree, but they could let those fines stack up while waiting for their turn at the SCOTUS. They definitely wouldn't hold out forever, but they can hold out for long enough if need be.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#132

Post by cpt1138 »

Back in the days of the PalmV I was aghast at the terrible "technique" they used to store the user password to unlock the device. I was young and very stupid, but I pushed through proper, for that time, handling of the password.

With a court order, LE asked to unlock a device, and I was able to do it, did it and they sent me a letter of thanks which I still might have somewhere. I remember being happy to help, it was a drug case, drugs are bad mmmmkay.

In thinking about it I'm embarrassed at my younger self, but also cognizant that anyone familiar with the art could break it. It was a terrible, reversible scheme. After I pushed through the change to store the password I was confident that it could not be reversed and that it was "safe" and that I could no longer break it.

If they had suggested removing the other safeguards e.g. allowing any number of tries, etc. That would be this Apple situation and I really hope my younger self would have had the sense to plead "ignorance," refuse or whatever because my principles have not changed that much, and I am 100% on Apple's side on this issue.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#133

Post by nickles »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #125
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

There are no terrorists. It's a fiction imposed upon the American people by a government with a power trip.

That assertion is patently absurd. There are absolutely people and organized groups who perpetrate horrible acts solely to terrorize others. They are not some 'fiction' created by a 'power tripping' government. However, the risk that these people present to the world, at this point, does not merit sacrificing economic and civil liberties in their entirety to combat them. Rather, the dilemma is in determining an acceptable amount of liberty to sacrifice for safety, and vice versa.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#134

Post by ohyeshedid »

moioci wrote: post #2

Interesting parallel with Lavabit pointed out at the end of the article. Would the DOJ be willing to risk shutting down the biggest and most profitable corporation on earth over this?

No, because it's a publicly traded company. Apple's size, value, and market penetration are a few of the reasons why the feds didn't go the NSL route. This is one ugly fight, but if they went the NSL route Apple could finally disprove their constitutional validity; DOJ would neeeeeever want to put that on the table.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#135

Post by ohyeshedid »

koenigdavidmj wrote: post #43
LAMike wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government would respond by banning all iOS devices

And most of the US government's phones suddenly turn into expensive bricks. I'm not sure whether a company should be 'too big to govern', but it is on occasion hilarious.

It's not that it's too big to govern, it's that they're too big to fail. Publicly traded, employment footprint, market penetration; too big to fail. The impact of any action that would kill Apple here would also destroy the economy. Never happen.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#136

Post by protomyth »

beachy wrote: post #114
studentrob wrote: post #74

I honestly feel that engineers need not fall on their swords over this. The decision is up to them, of course. But ultimately, shareholders would expect someone to comply with the court order should the DOJ win. Note that Yahoo was threatened with daily fines of $250,000 for failing to comply in a FISA court case in 2008, and we only just learned this in 2014 [1]. I don't think we would live in a forced back door wor…

Indeed. Let's say Apple is forced to bake a back door into their devices. Criminals and people who care about privacy will use their own encryption tech (they probably do anyway) and life goes on for them. Eventually the govt's backdoor is abused or cracked. The people grow fretful. A truly secure device from somewhere outside the US gains market traction. The US tech industry's shrieks gather volume. The govt realis…

> Let's say Apple is forced to bake a back door into their devices.

Why would another government allow the selling of a device with a know (not just suspected) backdoor for the US government? Sounds like a great opportunity to boost local companies.

I would expect some serious repercussions on foreign market sales.

also, we're still paying for v-chips.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#137

Post by taneq »

studentrob wrote: post #108
jnbiche wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications. So you really think the government will have gathered all that power, only to rea…

Well, eventually people will realize they can just download an encrypted communications tool right? I'm not 100% sure about what happens after 2/4/8 years. That scenario also relies on a really informed public to fight back and care. This is why I and a few other engineers are forming a grassroots campaign to support encryption. If you'd like to get involved, send me an email at stillastudent on google's email servic…

Ah, but once encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption. At which point anyone sending or receiving encrypted data that the feds can't decrypt is automatically guilty of a crime, and should be apprehended.

Of course, if you have nothing to hide from your friendly government agency, you have nothing to fear!

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#138

Post by ww520 »

yarou wrote: post #20

This is very much a case of civil disobedience. Non-violent struggle is a surprisingly effective tactic. As Gandhi states: >You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind.

They can fine you to poverty.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#139

Post by gpm »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

There are several factors that must be satisfied for the AWA to apply, even in the FBIs interpretations.

One of them is that they have to be closely connected to the case. The arguments for Apple not being far removed are that they license the software, that they designed created and sold the phone, and so on. Most of the don't apply to the individual engineers, so they probably can't be compelled even if the court finds that Apple can.

Another is that it can be too burdensome, and part of the burdensome analysis is if it is "offensive" to them. Considering they quit their jobs over this the court would almost certainly find that it was too burdensome, even if the court doesn't find it is too burdensome to compel Apple.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#140

Post by goodplay »

lojack wrote: post #109
saulrh wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think we would live in a forced back door world for too long. After another 2, 4, or 8 years, we will eventually realize that giving the government a back door to the iPhone did not give it a back door to the myriad of other encrypted communications tools out there. Terrorists will find other ways to hide their communications. I'm going to disagree with you here. Didn't we think, back in 2001, that we'd onl…

How exactly are they supposed to permanently remove all semblance of privacy? Short of infiltrating popular open source projects in plain view and proving the (potentially) unprovable, I don't see how this is possible.

They can always go the FCC route and enforce a lock down on any general computing device sold within the border; Submit your source code to our automated build and signing service or your software will simply not run.

Remember that all that is required is that the majority of people comply.

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