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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

131–140 of 524 posts

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#131
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "no homework" thing is such a red herring. Companies that do work samples minimize on-site coding interviews , because the whole point of offsite work sample testing is that most candidates can't provide an accurate picture of their aptitude in an on-site coding interview. No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge. The problem developers have…

>No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge. Sure, Google/Microsoft have the legendary "6 hour" marathon interviews with multiple teams with lunch in the middle but for smaller scale of companies, they don't have bandwidth to mess around with all-day interviews. It's ~2 hours. In this thread, it shows I'm not the only one who prefers onsite whitebo…

This is just not true. I talk to interviewing developers every day, and very few of them are interviewing at Google.

The final round of on-site interviews usually eats a whole day, and is preceded by a whole battery of time-wasting phone interviews, which themselves eat as much time as a coding challenge and often involve coding with someone else over the phone or Skype.

There are companies that are not Google that have multiple rounds of on-site interviews.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#132

not sure why there is so much resistance here about doing an 8 hour test, I might be in the minority but for a traditional whiteboard interview I would spend a lot more than 8 hours revising algorithms and so on, and have a lot of stress due to whiteboard coding not being anything like real coding. Being able to take a Sunday to work on a challenging problem in my own editor / computer / dev environment sounds great!…

> not sure why there is so much resistance here about doing an 8 hour test

If you're applying to just 5 companies, that's a full (well 40-hour) work week of effort for a small chance of going forward with the next stage of the interview/hazing ritual. Might be good if you are already unemployed, but incompatible with candidates who already work.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#133
post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

mid 30s? you're at the top of your game, mentally. I'm mid 40s and the memory is definitely a bit shot. There are other factors in my situation as well, but past 43, you start sensing it.

I can certainly still program, but interviewing...I'm tired of it. Tired of being asked picayune questions like I just graduated. Maybe I should I change my CV title from 'Senior Software Engineer'... that actually implies 30-something, late 20s. but what? "Part time CTO and dog's body for a few small startups/companies"?

I know I can do most anything I put some effort into, the relearning process is not hard. But everyone wants a warm body they can immediately plug in. I get interest due to my CV, but they want to stick me into jobs I'm too senior for. I need to figure out what to change... or tell recruiters, no absolutely not, no more front end work, ever!

well, my advice is start planning your career change now - I wish I had 10 years ago, instead of merely idly thinking about it.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#134
post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

From my experience on both sides of the table, 90% of the times average companies will always pick the candidate that is cheaper (that is, the one that asks for the least salary), not the one that is most skilled. So don't beat yourself over this, you simply can get unlucky when there's competition, even if you skills are sound.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#135
post #89

A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he…

Sounds like a typical young startup hiring process (young mostly on the age of the company not the employees although it's hard to ignore the correlation)

More established companies will probably have 30 to mid 30 as the median age, and will have much more professional hiring process (relatively)

Also there is a saying that goes around: A's hire A's, B's hire C's

There are cases where you will be declined as "overqualified" or "no cultural fit" when they mean "will replace my job or at best make me look bad" and "too old" respectively.

I wouldn't give up yet. There are a lot of software architect positions if you have the relevant experience. Median age is higher than 30 I'm pretty sure.

But the "we don't have enough developers" is a blunt lie, "we don't have enough excellent developers" is also a lie. "We don't have enough rock star developers who are ok not being paid enough and have no aspiration to become team leads and just want to code all their career and work overtime" is probably more accurate.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#136
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and even told me he thought I was a better programmer than him. Probably that's exactly why you were ignored. The guy was scared of competition. (Maybe they were looking for a tech lead and he felt threatened by your expertise.)

A's hire A's and B's hire C's. http://www.hrdusa.com/As_hire_As.html

That seems more aspirational than realistic.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#137
I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert, but in my career I've probably interviewed a few hundred people. I think people way over-complicate this stuff by trying to be too clever.

To me, the most useful question is this: "here is an example project that we'd be likely to do, how would you build it?" Then you just let them walk through the steps they'd take.

From there you can launch into why they made the choices they made, trade-offs, philosophy, etc. When you hear people explain how they would make something real, you start to learn a lot of things about them without even needing to ask, and so you're less likely to get scripted answers. They're also probably in their comfort zone at this point, so you get to see them in a more real way.

I don't necessarily mind "homework" style projects, but I tend to shy away from that sort of thing as it's not always respectful of the candidates time.

Two questions I usually avoid (but see getting asked all the time): puzzle questions, and language trivia. I don't ask puzzle questions because I've never seen it correlate to something useful. Most puzzles require an "aha" moment where your subconscious bubbles up some kind of answer, but the easiest way to short circuit that part of a persons brain is to put them in front of strangers with a time constraint. Puzzles might give you a clue as to a persons overall IQ and confidence, but it won't tell you a lot about how they can do the job.

Puzzle questions are also "expensive", in that they usually put a candidate on edge, and they set off the candidates bullshit detector. Let's keep in mind that we're going to reject the majority of candidates, statistically speaking, but you still want them to think highly of your company. If they feel like they're being rejected for a BS reason, you've just created animosity towards your company. It's important that the people you reject still feel respected.

I don't ask language or framework trivia, as I don't think it's useful. I might lob a softball about a framework just to make sure they've actually used it, but I'm not going to ask something hard.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#138
post #29
post #18

In my experience, asking candidates to read and explain someone else's code is a much better indicator than letting them do some whiteboard programming.

Similarly I've found that talking through some deliberately broken code, and what improvements could be made to it, gives a good idea of what a candidate would be like to work with on real problems. It's more about the discussion than the code changes they come up with!

Agree 100% especially since that's most of the daily job is fixing up old code that was written in a hurry or for a different circumstance.

The ability to see what some code was trying to do and how to fix it and make it extendable and or understandable for future generations is invaluable.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#139
"we sent to candidates a functional test suíte, a binary that when started would try to connect to the candidate’s server implementation, open lots of sockets, sends lots of messages, and verify the results against what the problem description stated"

Codility.com is a software as service company that automates this.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#140
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (ie, work sample tests), I do not understand why any tech company does developer hiring in any other way. Because every method of hiring has its own biases and tradeoffs. Requiring work samples biases against programmers who aren't interested in doing a "homework assignment". For example, I don't enjoy whiteboard interviews but I'd rather write some fragments in front of the interviewer and "think out loud" instead…

The "no homework" thing is such a red herring. Companies that do work samples minimize on-site coding interviews , because the whole point of offsite work sample testing is that most candidates can't provide an accurate picture of their aptitude in an on-site coding interview. No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge. The problem developers have…

> No interviewing software developer prefers an extra 6 hours of on-site interview to an off-site coding challenge.

I'd prefer it, since if I pass the coding challenge, I'm likely in for a airplane flight and an on-site interview anyway, so I've still lost that time from my life in addition to the time spent on the coding challenge. Unless the coding challenge is conducted INSTEAD of an on-site hazing session, in which case, well, E-mail in profile!

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