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Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

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Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not want any of that stuff. I found FreeBSD to be unusable simply in the command line environment. I was using only a text console login. I simply wanted a decent shell and editor. Heck, FreeBSD wouldn't even scroll back with the de facto standard Shift-PgUp. > mounts his drives for him That amazing advancement in Unix usability can be achieved by something called the "automount daemon" which was introduced in t…

> I found FreeBSD to be unusable simply in the command line environment. I was using only a text console login. I simply wanted a decent shell and editor. If you don't like a command line interface install a desktop environment, if you want a different shell install one and if you wan't a different editor, again install a different one. Nothing you have wrote suggest FreeBSD is unusable, apparently you prefer systems…

I like a command line environment.

> If you want a different shell install one and if you wan't a different editor, again install a different one.

I didn't want to customize the FreeBSD environment because I was only using to to maintain a port of a specific program. I wanted that to build in the vanilla environment and not have any dependency on some customizations.

Dealing with FreeBSD was just a hassle, even for the three or four minutes once in a while (at release time) to fire it up, pick up new code, build and go through the regression suite, then roll binaries.

The last straw was when I switched some parsing to reentrant mode, requiring a newer version of Flex than the ancient version on FreeBSD. There was no obvious way to just upgrade to a newer version without building that from sources. That's okay, but it means anyone else wanting to reproduce my steps would be forced to do the same. Everyone else has newer flex: no problem with the GNU-based toolchains on Mac OS, Solaris, and elsewhere. MinGW, Cygwin, you name it. On Ubuntu, old flex is in a package called flex-old, which is mutually exclusive with a package called flex.

I just said to heck with it; I'm just not going to actively support that platform.

Actually, that was the second to last straw. The BSD people also don't understand how compiler command line feature selection macros (cc -D_WHATEVER) are supposed to work.

If you don't have any feature selection, then you get all the symbols. The presence of feature selection macros acts in a restrictive way: intersection rather than union semantics. If you say -D_POSIX_SOURCE it means "don't give me anything but POSIX source", and so if you combine that with another such option, you get the set intersection, which is useless. I ended up using -D__BSD_VISIBLE, which is something internal that you aren't supposed to use (hence the double underscore) which has the effect of making traditional BSD functions visible even though _POSIX_SOURCE is in effect.

On GNU and some other systems, you just add -D_BSD_SOURCE and you're done: those identifiers are added to what you already selected.

This is how POSIX says feature selection works: see here:

http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/V2...

"Additional symbols not required or explicitly permitted by POSIX.1-2008 to be in that header shall not be made visible [by _POSIX_C_SOURCE], except when enabled by another feature test macro."

Except when enabled by another feature test macro: they are additive, damn it!

The BSD stance is that "just don't put anything on the command line and you get all the library symbols. What's the problem?" (Like, some of them are specific to your OS and they clash with some of mine?)

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#132
post #85
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lonely comment is lonely. Literally halfs of dozens of research projects and ones of promotional installations served! Nearly threes of dozens attended conferences, at which twos of booths were no doubt tabled, perhaps both by you, one of the only persons who apparently used Plan 9 commercially. I'm feeling nostalgic enough to go launch an inferno instance now just on principle.

It's unadopted, but this does not mean it is bad. GNU/Linux is the worst of all and survives only because it's widely adopted, and better-marketed. Many who turn to Unix world first encounter GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux is, quality-wise, inferior to both Plan9 and BSDs, it's a big hack, but it came before, and got adopted first. Now I downvoted all your comments in this thread for they are unconstructive both in the negativ…

Linux came before BSD?

Please become better informed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_wars#BSD_and_the_rise_of_...

"BSD purged copyrighted AT&T code from 1989 to 1994. During this time various open-source BSD x86 derivatives took shape, starting with 386BSD, which was soon succeeded by FreeBSD and NetBSD."

BSD was an OS long before 1989; the open-source BSD's weren't new projects written from scratch, but made possible by purging AT&T copyrighted code from the code base.

Linux (the kernel) only started in 1991, from scratch. The GNU parts that go into a "GNU/Linux" --- the GNU C compiler and utilities from the GNU project --- started in 1984. But that is still later than BSD. 1BSD was released in 1978: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Distribution...]

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#133
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UTF-16 isn't a superset of ASCII, for one. Doesn't seem that anyone uses a native UTF-16 terminal, but if you're trying to use grep or whatnot on a UTF-16 encoded file, it'll happily silently not do what you want...

畂桳栠摩琠敨映捡獴!

唀吀䘀ⴀ㄀㘀 戀礀琀攀猀眀愀瀀猀 愀爀攀 愀氀猀漀 昀甀渀.

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#134
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Think about it. There is only one man page for xterm. I fyou type "man xterm" with no section number you get that man page. If there existed an xterm(7) page, you'd still get the xterm(1) man page by default. So why the hell write the (1) notation every time you type the word xterm? Because the convention exists to define the type of the component. It's a handy convention, and I'm betting there are a few people read…

So, if I don't know anything but Gnome terminal, and don't know what xterm is, if I see "xterm", I have to look it up. However, if I see "xterm(1)", I don't have to look it up? Strange. (And how did I get to the situation in which I know what (1) means, yet I only know Gnome terminal and don't know what xterm is?) (What about the fact that xterm(1) is also a hyperlink in the sumitted page? You could change the anchor…

unix has got much bigger problems than this

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#135
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unadopted, but this does not mean it is bad. GNU/Linux is the worst of all and survives only because it's widely adopted, and better-marketed. Many who turn to Unix world first encounter GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux is, quality-wise, inferior to both Plan9 and BSDs, it's a big hack, but it came before, and got adopted first. Now I downvoted all your comments in this thread for they are unconstructive both in the negativ…

Linux came before BSD? Please become better informed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_wars#BSD_and_the_rise_of_... "BSD purged copyrighted AT&T code from 1989 to 1994. During this time various open-source BSD x86 derivatives took shape, starting with 386BSD, which was soon succeeded by FreeBSD and NetBSD." BSD was an OS long before 1989; the open-source BSD's weren't new projects written from scratch, but made pos…

Oh thanks. And who invented vi? Bram Moolenaar!

Seriously, it should be obvious that BSDs mean, in the context of my comment, modern BSDs. The GNU/linux environment was practically usable before those were. Your comment is pure evil rhetoric.

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't get why are you still using those miles and pounds when the rest of the world agreed on kilometres and kilograms.

I live in Canada. Before that I grew up in a metric country. Though Canada is metric, I use imperial measures here and there. I use miles for the sport of running. This is because 1609 meters is close to 1600. Four laps around a standard 400 meter track is about a mile and everything follows from that. All my training is based on miles. I think of paces per mile. If I'm traveling abroad and some hotel treadmill is in…

Some things are traditionally measured in inches even worldwide, like screen diagonals or pipe diameters or, as you have noticed, mil grids. But in any other cases, seeing those feet, yards, miles and pounds in some internet resources presumably made for _international_ audience annoys the heck out of me. In our country (tip: Ukraine), not any ruler or tape measure even has inch marks, yet they are optional here when centimetres are a must. But as soon as I see a video about something "that's 36.5 feet tall", I have to run a conversion to find out what is it in metres. Pretty much the same as the case with some foreign and non-universal character encoding (when everything I see is just garbled letters and/or squares).

P.S. And yes, my ruler is made from aluminium, not aluminum.

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The maintainers of the free BSD's have been carrying that torch, but they don't believe in features. I used Linux for more than a decade before switching to OpenBSD precisely because Linux developers believe in features to the point where how well they're implemented is no longer relevant. The arrogant, know-it-all kids that we so lovingly nurtured in the Linux community grew up to be its forefront developers today…

What's so cool about OpenVMS? You're not the first person to praise it but nobody ever explained why.

It's was quite a long time ago so my memory is fuzzy but one thing that was quite cool about OpenVMS is the automatic versioning of the files. Also the tools were quite robust: I remember a word editor DecWrite(?), it was labelled 'beta' but it was far, far more robust than Word (if less capable).

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Canada. Before that I grew up in a metric country. Though Canada is metric, I use imperial measures here and there. I use miles for the sport of running. This is because 1609 meters is close to 1600. Four laps around a standard 400 meter track is about a mile and everything follows from that. All my training is based on miles. I think of paces per mile. If I'm traveling abroad and some hotel treadmill is in…

Some things are traditionally measured in inches even worldwide, like screen diagonals or pipe diameters or, as you have noticed, mil grids. But in any other cases, seeing those feet, yards, miles and pounds in some internet resources presumably made for _international_ audience annoys the heck out of me. In our country (tip: Ukraine), not any ruler or tape measure even has inch marks, yet they are optional here when…

Aluminium is an English word used in the UK.

Both the words "aluminium" and "aluminum" are British inventions. Both derive from "alumina", a name given in the 1700's to aluminum oxide. That word comes from the Latin "alumen", from which the word "alum" is also derived.

"Aluminum" was coined first, by English chemist Sir Humphry Davy, in 1808. He first called it "alumium", simply by adding "-ium" to "alum" (as in, the elemental base of alum, just like "sodium" is the elemental base of soda), and then added "n" to make "aluminum". In 1812, British editors replaced Davy's new word with "aluminium", keeping Davy's "n", but restoring the "-ium" suffix which coordinated with the other elements like potassium.

North Americans stuck with Davy's original "aluminum".

In Slovakia, we have a nice word for it: hliník, derived from hlina (clay).

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#139
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

checkout the different implementations of echo across various operating systems: " https://gist.github.com/dchest/1091803" .

I've used the -e option in GNU's echo many times. The various other versions are strictly less useful to me. Does the option really belong in echo? Who knows, but it's certainly been useful to me. UNIX fifth edition goes for absolute minimalism. Echo in Plan 9 is apparently used enough that it's worthwhile to optimize the number of times write is called. FreeBSD echo looks like someone just learned about writev. Open…

> What's the takeaway for you?

For many people, from the writers of the Single Unix Specification to the Debian Policy people, the take-away was and is use printf, for nigh on 20 years now.

* https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch12.en....

* http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/7908799/xcu/echo.html#t...

* https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=490605

* http://www.in-ulm.de/~mascheck/various/echo+printf/

* http://mywiki.wooledge.org/Bashism#Builtins

* https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DashAsBinSh#echo

* https://lwn.net/Articles/346028/

Re: Xterm(1) now UTF-8 by default on OpenBSD

#140

I've been trying to teach myself some unicode code points because I'm getting sick and tired of continually Googling them and copying and pasting the result or bringing up a symbol character table. In fact, I'd say keyboards are woefully out to date. Specifically, I keep looking up † dagger (U+2020) and ‡ double-dagger (U+2021) for footnotes, black heart (U+2065) to be romantic, black star (U+2605) to talk about Davi…

> In fact, I'd say keyboards are woefully out to date.

I wrote a virtual terminal subsystem a while ago. I gave it keyboard layouts with the ISO 9995-3 common secondary group. No daggers, alas. But ISO 9995-3 does have pretty much all of the combining diacritical marks. +D05 is combining diaeresis. In practice I find myself not appreciating that as much as I appreciate being able to type U+00A7 as +C02.

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