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The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

nytimes.com

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Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#131

Post by nommm-nommm »

dpark wrote: post #64
wlucas wrote: post #37

What makes all the difference in the world now compared to the jaw-dropping prices in '81 is we have alternative education options. There were virtually no other paths to career success 30 years ago... heck... 15 years ago! A traditional path towards a degree was the only way to assure a positive career outlook. I don't think MOOCs are the panacea, but all types of learning resources (books, classes, organizations, e…

I feel like this is backwards. 30 years ago you could potentially work your way up the ladder without a degree. Now you need a degree to get a job working in a coffee shop, because college degrees are so ubiquitous that they've become a prerequisite for employment at many places. Sure, you could do some learning on your own now, but you could also do that 30 years ago, and I'm not certain most employers are going to…

Totally backwards.

I know a lot of people in their 30s-50s who would never be able to get hired for their jobs now since new hires in their position need a college degree which, by the way, is hilariously stupid. Employers expect you to have a college degree to clean the toilets now.

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#132

Post by ThrustVectoring »

humanrebar wrote: post #106
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's several overlapping causes. 1. Services in general don't benefit from productivity improvements like goods do. As productivity goes up, services tend to get more expensive in terms of physical goods. Education is a service (as is health care, which is also out-pacing inflation). 2. Saving is extraordinarily difficult on a national and generational scale. Outside of saving easy-to-extract natural resources (oi…

> Services in general don't benefit from productivity improvements like goods do Very not true. Productivity for paralegals, accountants, and programmers has certainly risen over the decades. We could define education as "person at chalkboard talking about things to other persons sitting at desks", which probably doesn't scale well. There's no reason to think that, in abstract, distributing information won't scale we…

I may have used the wrong phrasing for generational - I meant it much less in terms of inheritance, and more in terms of "doing things now that mean I have food on the table forty years from now." Like, if you want to do things now so that someone staffs your nursing home when you're old, the net effect is that you're trading real goods and services for "I will do valuable things for society later, such as staffing a nursing home."

If you aren't trading current goods for future promises of them, then you're doing things like building machines and roads that deprecate and require maintenance, or growing crops that rot, or otherwise making stuff that won't be very helpful when you're older.

And since a lot of people want to be taken care of when they're older, and they're making tons of things that people today want, there's absolutely zero surprise that they're extending shitloads of credit (especially to young people, and college/housing in particular).

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#133

Post by marme »

kevindeasis wrote: post #39

I'm still waiting for a dramatic disruption of the college/post-secondary industry. I hope it comes really soon, but I'm starting to doubt if it'll come within the next 5 years. I think it's going to take lots of people to disrupt education especially since the government will get involve. I'm starting to feel that some courses in college/university isn't worth that much money. Like a 50,000 degree that has lectures…

it has already started in the tech sector. There are dozens of coding schools that teach you to get a developer positions in less than a year. It is the equivalent of a trade school for developers. It will be interesting to see how the industry adapts to a large percentage of their workforce not having university education. will there be distinction between those with CS degrees and those without?

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#134

Post by zxcvvcxz »

crabasa wrote: post #10
cassieramen wrote: post #5

This article hints at schools inability to justify their ever increasing prices. Why is tuition continuing to rise so much faster than inflation? Is this simple supply and demand? Government backed loans create infinite supply to anyone who wants them? How can not for profit schools justify gauging their students?

1. Infinite supply of loans. Dept of Ed isn't even allowed to deny a loan to a person. 2. Culture since the Clinton era of "everyone should go to college". Massive cultural stigma for those who don't. 3. Colleges continue to justify costs based on lifetime earnings delta of people with degrees. Sadly, this data is backwards-looking and not indicative of what today's students should expect. The most heinous thing thou…

> 3. Colleges continue to justify costs based on lifetime earnings delta of people with degrees. Sadly, this data is backwards-looking and not indicative of what today's students should expect.

Not only that, it's downright bullshit.

I remember seeing once a comparison. Non college degree average salary: let's say it's 30K. College degree: 40K. Instead of college, take those 4 years and at least $50K of educational expenses and invest in the S&P 500. Do nothing. Earn more over your lifetime that the more sophisticated 40K college graduate.

Or better yet, take that 50K, use the plethora of free online learning resources and become an entrepreneur. For a large portion of the population, college is simply not worth it.

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#135

Post by tn13 »

crabasa wrote: post #10
cassieramen wrote: post #5

This article hints at schools inability to justify their ever increasing prices. Why is tuition continuing to rise so much faster than inflation? Is this simple supply and demand? Government backed loans create infinite supply to anyone who wants them? How can not for profit schools justify gauging their students?

1. Infinite supply of loans. Dept of Ed isn't even allowed to deny a loan to a person. 2. Culture since the Clinton era of "everyone should go to college". Massive cultural stigma for those who don't. 3. Colleges continue to justify costs based on lifetime earnings delta of people with degrees. Sadly, this data is backwards-looking and not indicative of what today's students should expect. The most heinous thing thou…

I totally understand this aspect but what I do not understand is why anyone would ever pay $150K for a media studies degree or a degree in baking. Are Americans that stupid to pursue meaningless education at such price ?

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#136

Post by nommm-nommm »

Alupis wrote: post #16
usea wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many schools require taking said "total package" for the first semester or first year. I know at my university, all incoming freshmen were required to live on campus and purchase a meal plan. For anyone who lives nearby or planned on shopping around, this is an additional cost.

That's a good point. My university did not have this requirement, however I should point out, even if you lived at home, or moved out on your own - you will be spending this money anyway. As-in, it doesn't matter if the university requires you to take this package the first year, since you're spending it no matter what (on living somewhere). It's just a matter of who you give that money to. If you don't want to spend…

Yes it does matter because I don't eat 1/4th the amount of food that my "meal plan" forced me to pay. I also can't shop around for cheaper options - i am required to buy food from one source. That was almost 2 decades ago so I'm sure its gotten much worse since.

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#137

Post by brbsix »

zo1 wrote: post #122
jenshoop wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. There's also been an increasing competitive push between universities to deliver "country club-esque" experiences to students, which further drives up cost. (Separately, let's not forget about the chaos of the educational publishing industry and the insane price points they command for modestly updated editions each year.) But I think items 1 and 2 above -- and a lack of education about what loans are and th…

>" There's also been an increasing competitive push between universities to deliver "country club-esque" experiences to students, which further drives up cost. " That was my impression of University/College. Having only experienced what was shown in movies and the media, I was under the impression that college meant getting your own "apartment with a roommate". Unfortunately, in the non-US university I attended, it m…

At least in my experience at a UC, the media portrayal was fairly accurate. It seemed like there was a never-ending onslaught of concerts, "multicultural events", sporting events, "community center" activities, safe spaces, Greek events, etcetera (all of which receive school funding in some form or another). I appreciated the occasional guest speaker, but looking around I couldn't help but notice money pouring from everywhere, namely for things that had nothing to do with academics. Far too many administrators with too much time on their hands.

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#138

Post by noonespecial »

api wrote: post #111
crabasa wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice analogy, but at least in the housing market you're equally likely to be a winner (sell before crash) as a loser (buy before crash).

Is there a general principle here? Do loan subsidies lead to a condition in which the loan recipients are able to reap the benefits intended for loan originators through progressive inflation and risk transfer?

I think what we've got here is a misalignment of the participants' roles courtesy of unintended consequences.

The recipients have become the schools, deriving all of the benefits with no risk. The originators have escaped their traditional role as gatekeepers and risk takers. That leaves the students for all of the risk to concentrate on while they receive few of the benefits.

Essentially becoming sharecroppers of their own minds.

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#139

Post by Retra »

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #134
crabasa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Infinite supply of loans. Dept of Ed isn't even allowed to deny a loan to a person. 2. Culture since the Clinton era of "everyone should go to college". Massive cultural stigma for those who don't. 3. Colleges continue to justify costs based on lifetime earnings delta of people with degrees. Sadly, this data is backwards-looking and not indicative of what today's students should expect. The most heinous thing thou…

> 3. Colleges continue to justify costs based on lifetime earnings delta of people with degrees. Sadly, this data is backwards-looking and not indicative of what today's students should expect. Not only that, it's downright bullshit. I remember seeing once a comparison. Non college degree average salary: let's say it's 30K. College degree: 40K. Instead of college, take those 4 years and at least $50K of educational e…

What 50K? Are you telling me I could've applied for 50K in government-issued student loans and then turned around and spent that on a free online school and started a business?

Re: The $10,000-a-year college education has arrived (1981)

#140

Post by recursive »

slg wrote: post #54
crabasa wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrible argument that I've never heard an actual policy-maker or politician make. Besides, unsecured debts are all around us, credit cards being the most common.

But it is much harder to get other forms of unsecured debt. An 18 year old with no job and no credit history is going to have a hard time getting a credit card with a $5k limit let alone a $100k loan. The lack of being able to discharge the loan in bankruptcy needs to go hand in hand with the guaranteed availability of the loan. Instead of changing one of those things, we are are better off coming up with a new syste…

I've been full-time as a software developer for >10 years, and still haven't been able to get a credit card with a $5k limit. Fortunately, I don't need credit for anything.
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