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Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

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Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#131

Post by lagadu »

andreyf wrote: post #107
gotchange wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does WhatsApp have any physical presence in Brazil? Did they incorporate any subsidiary there?

I don't know, but for the sake of argument, I think it's OK to say no. If I have a website that is reachable on the internet that hosts a wiki and logs access, does that mean I am doing business in all countries that have internet access? Can any of their courts compel me to disclose visitors from their country? What if I refuse to provide visitor logs, is it OK for them to block my site at the border? What about to…

> What if I refuse to provide visitor logs, is it OK for them to block my site at the border? What about to order a private teleco to block my site?

That depends exclusively on the laws of the country in question, not on the laws of the country the offender is based on. That's what a sovereign state does, it determines its own rules.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#132

Post by sangnoir »

cthalupa wrote: post #104
DannyBee wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why must WhatsApp comply with Brazilian laws? They have no offices there. " They don't. They only have to comply if they don't want to be blocked. "If I run, say, a porn site, hosted in the US, as a US company, is it my responsibility to prevent users in a country where pornography is illegal from using my site? Do I have any duty to comply with said country requesting the identity and viewing history of citizens li…

There's some subtle and fundamental differences here that I think are important. People are saying WhatsApp are lawbreakers, etc. That heavily implies that they've done something wrong - which would mean that they are indeed subject to these laws in some shape or fashion. I would argue that this is a dangerous thought process to have. It's a scary precedent - blocking WhatsApp is relatively mild, but what about if th…

My foundational statements, I think most people would agree to the follwing:

1. Sovereign countries have a right to formulate laws and uphold them to protect their citizens.

2. Companies can choose where they do business. In most cases, the relationship with host countries is symbiotic (benefits include skilled employees/employment, taxes).

No one is suggesting that WhatsApp is breaking the law, however, Brazil requires WhatApps cooperation in a criminal investigation (criminal, by Brazilian law). WhatApp chose not to cooperate. Brazil's judiciary have come up with leverage to gain that cooperation, in the absence of more effective means (arresting WhatApp officers if they had an office in Brazil, as a US would in a Contempt of Court charge)

IMO, legally this is similar to the UK using ISPs to block the Pirate Bay - it's perfectly legal in Sweden.

Extreme example: the US would be entirely within their rights to block an Italian porn sites that has videos of 15 year-olds. The company won't be "lawbreakers", but they are not welcome on US's cyperspace

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#133

Post by rmc »

jzwinck wrote: post #63
Shank wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about Brazil. He's probably a Brazilian green card holder.

There is no such thing as a Brazilian green card. Green card is a figure of speech that is mostly used to refer to US permanent residency. Other countries often just call it PR.

To further aid confusion, "Green Card" in Europe means a certification from your motor insurance provider that extends motoring insurance to the rest of the "green card countries" (which is basically Europe)

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#134

Post by rmc »

morgante wrote: post #96
dogma1138 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's when it's a US company if it's foreign it will end up on the US trade department sanction list which will blacklist them world wide not only in the US and will prevent any entity which operates in the US from doing any sort of business with them. There is nothing that a Brazilian judge can do to whatsapp other than to harm them financially cutting off 100m users even in a developing market sends a clear sign.

Facebook has an office in Brazil. I don't really understand why they couldn't just levy financial penalties, since Facebook does actually have a business presence in the country.

You're presuming that that Facebook office in Brazil actually has a lot of assets in Brazil to seize. It's likely that it's a shell organisation and has nothing to seize.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#135

Post by nindalf »

ex3ndr wrote: post #48
tetrep wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why not textsecure? it's free and open source.

Text secure is a cool application, but they are not focused on people. Very different goals of projects.

Not focused on people? That doesn't... make much sense.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#136

Post by rmc »

cthalupa wrote: post #45
rmdoss wrote: post #19

Can confirm whatsapp is down for some friends in Brazil. However, the real reason is not for what Techcrunch is saying. The issue is that WhatsApp didn't want to cooperate with the federal police and release chat information from some criminals. According to some sources there, they followed all due process and WhatsApp ignored. As a retaliation, to show that WhatsApp has to comply with Brazilian local laws when stor…

>As a retaliation, to show that WhatsApp has to comply with Brazilian local laws when storing data from Brazilians using the service in Brazil, they banned WhatsApp for 48 hrs. Why must WhatsApp comply with Brazilian laws? They have no offices there. If I run, say, a porn site, hosted in the US, as a US company, is it my responsibility to prevent users in a country where pornography is illegal from using my site? Do…

If they don't want to obey the laws of the country, then they have no right to complain when that country doesn't give them any protection.

You can damn well bet that WhatsApp will be paying attention to the Brazillian courts now.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#137

Post by lagadu »

morgante wrote: post #31
rmdoss wrote: post #19

Can confirm whatsapp is down for some friends in Brazil. However, the real reason is not for what Techcrunch is saying. The issue is that WhatsApp didn't want to cooperate with the federal police and release chat information from some criminals. According to some sources there, they followed all due process and WhatsApp ignored. As a retaliation, to show that WhatsApp has to comply with Brazilian local laws when stor…

> some criminals You mean suspected criminals, right? It still seems pretty reactionary. The solution isn't to block an entire service.

> It still seems pretty reactionary. The solution isn't to block an entire service.

Why not? If they're not complying with court mandated orders, then the court is empowered to enact any legal (in Brasil) measures to coerce cooperation out of the offender. If whatsapp wants to operate there they have to follow the law; they stopped following the law, they're no longer welcome.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#138

Post by rmc »

cthalupa wrote: post #101
kuschku wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that if WhatsApp doesn’t want to be blocked, they have to follow the laws. And so they are blocked for 48 hours, warning them that they might be blocked permanently. It’s the only way to deal with lawbreaking companies in a globalized world.

>It’s the only way to deal with lawbreaking companies in a globalized world. Fundamentally, I think it's ludicrous to think you should international companies to the laws of your own country. Fundamentally, WhatsApp is not a lawbreaking company - they are not subject to Brazilian law. You can't break a rule that isn't actually imposed on you. From a practical perspective, it doesn't matter for Brazilians. The end res…

> I think it's ludicrous to think you should international companies to the laws of your own country.

WhatsApp are not an "international company", they are a US company[1]. You can bet that if it was a US court that WhatsApp would comply.

[1] https://www.whatsapp.com/contact/

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#139

Post by sangnoir »

kuschku wrote: post #114
cthalupa wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It’s the only way to deal with lawbreaking companies in a globalized world. Fundamentally, I think it's ludicrous to think you should international companies to the laws of your own country. Fundamentally, WhatsApp is not a lawbreaking company - they are not subject to Brazilian law. You can't break a rule that isn't actually imposed on you. From a practical perspective, it doesn't matter for Brazilians. The end res…

“The internet is not a law-free room” This quote from a German politician sounds silly at first, but makes sense. If a company wishes to get access to a market, they have to follow their laws. I can’t start a company and sell pirated DVDs to the US – even if that might be legal in China. And the US can then stop importing my products, and demand I follow their laws, or be blocked. For you, as a solo developer, it is…

> “The internet is not a law-free room”

It's worse than that - only American laws are applicable on the internet world-wide, and most of HN is fine with that without any second thought.

The US has never been shy applying its laws abroad, with numerous examples: domain name seizures with the tenuous nexus being "Domain Registrar is a US entity", prosecution of the Pirate Bay and Kim Dotcom, the TPP.

Brazil intends to take action that only applies within its borders and suddenly the sky is falling, all because it's against an American company.

Re: Brazilian Judge Shuts Down WhatsApp for 48 Hours

#140

Post by germanier »

msh wrote: post #92
Tomte wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they want to do business there, sure. The alternative stands: get out of the country. You maintain that Facebook should, in general, follow your legal system. Do you believe that America and only America is "fair, just, constitutional, and parliamentary-approved"? That's basically American exceptionalism at its best.

So if the US wants info on users of a German app who have no servers or offices in the US it should just give it to them? Even if the offense they are suspected of is not illegal in Germany? My point is that Brazil should follow legal procedures and have a American judge issue a supena. That's what a MLAT is for.

I'm sure the Brazilian judge followed Brazilian legal procedures. That's the entire point of being a Brazilian judge. There might be other means to achieve a goal but that doesn't mean what happened isn't legal.

In your example, if that German app was targeted to US users (e.g. by localization and marketing) then yes, they should follow US laws. That's a test German courts use to determine whether they have jurisdiction in the digital world and I think that's fair and should be applied in the other direction as well. If they don't want to or can't (e.g. by contractual obligations or German law) they shouldn't act surprised if the US doesn't allow US business to trade with them.

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