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Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

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Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#131

Post by pzone »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #117
pzone wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a point which gets overlooked pretty often. It's the same as the value of taxi medallions in the Uber debate. Allowing Uber to operate in a city where technically only medallion owners were supposed to drive is actually really shitty to the owners of those medallions. You open it up, suddenly tell them that their investment is worthless because of a change in regulations. It's really unfair to them. Perhaps t…

It's not "really shitty" to the owners of the medallions, the risk of a loss of the artificial monopoly should have been baked into the price from the start. That the prices got as high as they did indicates the confidence the owners had over the stability of their political situation, which I have no sympathy for.

In that case, then the medallions also include the value of owners being able to maintain their monopoly through lobbying efforts.

Whether or not you have any sympathy for them, striking a deal is the best solution.

(Other question: do you have any sympathy for poor people who are hurt a bit by a carbon tax? Elsewhere in this discussion people are arguing against the tax because it hurts the poor. I think it would be a bit weird to be sympathetic to poor people who are hurt a little by a policy decision, but unsympathetic to slightly less poor people who are hurt a lot by a policy decision.)

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#132

Post by pzone »

dagw wrote: post #110
pzone wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

?? You just tax sales of oil, natural gas, etc. and a few other specific activities, like raising livestock, it's super easy If Congress can implement something as complex as the Dodd-Frank act, I'm sure it can measure and tax something as basic as carbon emissions

If only a few countries introduces/enforces this tax it will simply drive the huge carbon emitters to move their emissions to other countries. The only people that will be hurt are those that are too small to move.

Yes, and that's why 160+ world leaders are gathering in Paris to take steps toward a global carbon emissions agreement

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#133

Post by soared »

friendzis wrote: post #52

Carbon tax becomes a peculiar piece of legislation when viewed from Pirate Party's perspective (not necessarily that I agree with it, no ad hominem please). According to Rick Falkvinge [1] legislation must: * Be targeted at a problem * Solve the problem * Not create other problems in best case, worse problems in worst case * Be evidence based Carbon emission is considered a problem because it contributes to climate c…

By your logic we should remove alc/tobacco taxes then? Global warming (in the long term) is more harmful than either of those.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#134

Post by funkyy »

pzone wrote: post #132
dagw wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only a few countries introduces/enforces this tax it will simply drive the huge carbon emitters to move their emissions to other countries. The only people that will be hurt are those that are too small to move.

Yes, and that's why 160+ world leaders are gathering in Paris to take steps toward a global carbon emissions agreement

US and China are unlikely to go with it or they will end up playing the rules. The same as it is now.

Also - you are right, taxing will work. Its not like corporations and huge manufacturers will play the system and avoid paying taxes or getting them back through loopholes.

Only ones affected will be mostly SMBs and regular folks - as always.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#135

Post by SilasX »

dogma1138 wrote: post #126
SilasX wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefit of a carbon tax is that no one has to calculate whether the lifetime vs production CO2 cost is greater; it shows up in the prices of either.

The downside of carbon tax is that it harms developing nations and the poor the most.

The impact on the poor is easy to fix: prebate everyone an amount of money equal to the poverty level energy consumption. It cancels the income effect while preserving the incentive to cut back on any marginal unit of CO2.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#136

Post by reitzensteinm »

pzone wrote: post #131
reitzensteinm wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "really shitty" to the owners of the medallions, the risk of a loss of the artificial monopoly should have been baked into the price from the start. That the prices got as high as they did indicates the confidence the owners had over the stability of their political situation, which I have no sympathy for.

In that case, then the medallions also include the value of owners being able to maintain their monopoly through lobbying efforts. Whether or not you have any sympathy for them, striking a deal is the best solution. (Other question: do you have any sympathy for poor people who are hurt a bit by a carbon tax? Elsewhere in this discussion people are arguing against the tax because it hurts the poor. I think it would be…

I don't have sympathy for losses sustained via poor investment decisions. I have lost a small fortune in my life because of mistakes I've made, and I don't want or deserve sympathy for any of it. Losing is part of playing the game.

Poor people just trying to get by (and this included me at many points in my life) are who we should be saving our empathy for. Not wannabe businessmen.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#137

Post by tonyedgecombe »

dogma1138 wrote: post #127
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't need to choose between these, it's developed world lifestyles that are causing the problem, not basic hygiene in the developing world.

A carbon tax will non proportionally harm developing nations and the poor in all nations. Why would Tanzania have to pay more for fuel because it has 55 yr old power plants that pollute much more than France's shiny new ones? The agricultural industry is responsible for 30% of emissions, if we talk about food in general including transport, processing, manufacturing and distribution then 50-60% of our carbon emission…

Those figures don't sound right to me, the US spends about 8% of it's GDP on food, that isn't likely to add up to 50-60% of emissions.

A carbon tax doesn't have to harm the poor either, it can be neutral if it's offset with tax decreases in other areas. There is even an argument that the developing world doesn't raise enough tax, without taxes you can't provide good health care to the poor.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#138

Post by mac01021 »

netcan wrote: post #119

When it comes to carbon reduction using tax, tradable, caps or any other instrument that tries to use the price system to alter consumption levels… I think you need a very sober economic estimate of efficiency and cost. A tax is not very different economically from other price increases in carbon fuels. These prices vary a lot over time. We also already have fairly variable taxes between countries on the use of carbo…

The best solution I've seen is a "fee and dividend" system, where a carbon fee is collected and the proceeds are rebated in equal amounts to every legal resident of the nation.

This means that, when gas prices go up, a lower-class person whose carbon footprint is exactly that of the average citizen will be reimbursed for the extra gas money by exactly the right amount. And the tax ends up being not regressive.

Compare the carbon footprint of a well-to-do businessman who flies coast-to-coast on a monthly basis with that of a working-class guy who drives ten miles a day and heats his house with oil. The former is greater then the latter by several times. The working-class guy contributes a relatively small share to global warming, but bears an equal share of the public cost induced by the changing climate. Under the fee-and-dividend system, every man reimburses the public for the cost that he is imposing on them through his CO2 emissions, and is reimbursed by everyone else for the cost they impose on him.

Because of this I argue that a carbon fee and dividend is the right policy from a social justice perspective, and should be enacted even if it is not going to be sufficient to push us as a society off of fossil fuels.

Google "carbon fee and dividend" or see this (http://www.skepticalscience.com/CCL-pushing-for-US-fee-and-d...) for more.

Re: Elon Musk: Only a Carbon Tax Will Accelerate the World's Exit from Fossil Fuels

#139

Post by mac01021 »

diamondtrim wrote: post #7
eru wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's revenue neutral and lowering income taxes, where would the big `victims' be?

As usual, probably the poor & lower middle class unless the income tax reduction were explicitly directed to the lowest tax brackets to limit impact on working poor. Those below the poverty line would see an increase in their energy costs at the pump and and home electric bills as energy producers raise rates to compensate (and the impoverished are the least able to convert their use, so will be the longest affected…

The best solution I've seen is a "fee and dividend" system, where a carbon fee is collected and the proceeds are rebated in equal amounts to every legal resident of the nation.

This means that, when gas prices go up, a lower-class person whose carbon footprint is exactly that of the average citizen will be reimbursed for the extra gas money by exactly the right amount. And the tax ends up being not regressive.

Compare the carbon footprint of a well-to-do businessman who flies coast-to-coast on a monthly basis with that of a working-class guy who drives ten miles a day and heats his house with oil. The former is greater then the latter by several times. The working-class guy contributes a relatively small share to global warming, but bears an equal share of the public cost induced by the changing climate. Under the fee-and-dividend system, every man reimburses the public for the cost that he is imposing on them through his CO2 emissions, and is reimbursed by everyone else for the cost they impose on him.

Because of this I argue that a carbon fee and dividend is the right policy from a social justice perspective, and should be enacted even if it is not going to be sufficient to push us as a society off of fossil fuels.

Google "carbon fee and dividend" or see this (http://www.skepticalscience.com/CCL-pushing-for-US-fee-and-d...) for more.

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