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24/192 music downloads make no sense

people.xiph.org

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Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#131

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

This actually helps me articulate what I don't like about Spotify and why I don't use it, they only seem to have modern remasterings off all of the albums from the 70s, 80s and 90s that I'd want to listen to, but they lose a lot of the feel of the originals that I'm used to.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#132
post #55
post #26

I can't hear a difference between 96khz/44khz in it's raw form. However, I can tell the difference from effects in audio mixing. The extra detail can really make a difference in how well an audio effect VST works. I have a 96khz/24bit interface that I use and ATH-M30X headphones, and I can tell a difference between at least some 24bit FLAC files and 16bit highest-quality-possible MP3s. I was mixing my own music and t…

The article is pretty clear about this too - higher bitdepths and sampling rates can be quite useful in mixing and recording situations. They're pointless for playback.

Doesn't that depend on what type of playback you are doing? More and more playback these days is done via digital transfer with the volume set in software at the sending end, to amplifiers at fixed volume, such as many multi-room systems.

If I airplay a song from my iPhone and have the volume at 50% set in software, then a few extra bits can help. Not sure if it makes a noticable difference, but it's a digital mixing scenario occurring at playback. If you play at extremely low volume it should be noticable.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#133

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

The irony is that extreme dynamic compression only became popular after all of the mediums we listen to (CDs, MP3, digital radio, etc) went digital and we got >90 db dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio. Tapes and records are typically less than 60 db. So our digital music is capable of being as dynamically expressive as our ears but we clamp/ruin the dynamic range down to <20db.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#134
post #55
post #26

I can't hear a difference between 96khz/44khz in it's raw form. However, I can tell the difference from effects in audio mixing. The extra detail can really make a difference in how well an audio effect VST works. I have a 96khz/24bit interface that I use and ATH-M30X headphones, and I can tell a difference between at least some 24bit FLAC files and 16bit highest-quality-possible MP3s. I was mixing my own music and t…

The article is pretty clear about this too - higher bitdepths and sampling rates can be quite useful in mixing and recording situations. They're pointless for playback.

No they're not. And no matter how many times this gets linked to on the Internet, it's still wrong.

The basic problem: the quieter a sound or detail gets, the fewer bits of resolution are used to represent it.

In 16-bit recording, there simply aren't enough bits to represent very low level details without distorting them with a subtle but audible crunchy digital halo of quantisation noise.

In a 24-bit recording, there are.

Talking about dynamic range completely misses the point. It's the not the absolute difference between the loudest and quietest sounds that matters - it's the accuracy with which the quieter sounds are reproduced.

This is because in a studio, 0dB full-scale meter redline is calibrated to a standard voltage reference, and both consumer and professional audio has equivalent standard levels for the loudest level possible.

These levels don't change for different bit depths, and they're used on both analog and digital equipment. (In fact they've been standard for decades now.)

This is why using more bits does not mean you can "reproduce music with a bigger dynamic range" - not without turning the volume up, anyway.

What actually happens is that the maximum possible volume of a playback system stays the same, but quieter sounds are reproduced with more or less accuracy.

In a 16-bit recording quiet sounds below around 50Db have 1-8 bits of effective resolution, which is nowhere near enough for truly accurate reproduction. (Try listening to an 8-bit recording to hear what this means.)

You might think it doesn't matter because they're quiet. Not so. 50dB is a long way from being inaudible, ears can be incredibly good at spectral estimation, and your brain parses spectral content and volume as separate things.

There's a wide range between "loud enough to hear" and "too loud" and 24-bit covers that whole range accurately. 16-bit is fine for louder sounds, but the quieter details just above "loud enough to get hear" get audibly bit-crushed.

The effect isn't glaringly disturbing, and adding dither helps make it even less obvious. But it's still there.

24-bit doesn't need tricks like dither - because it does the job properly in the first place.

Now - whether or not commercial recordings have enough musical detail to take full advantage of 24-bits is a different question. For various reasons - compression, mastering, cheapness - many don't.

But if you have any kind of aural sensitivity, you really should be able to A/B the difference between a 24-bit uncompressed orchestral recording and a 16-bit recording using an otherwise identical studio-grade mixer/mike/recorder/speaker system without too much difficulty.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#135
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is pretty clear about this too - higher bitdepths and sampling rates can be quite useful in mixing and recording situations. They're pointless for playback.

No they're not. And no matter how many times this gets linked to on the Internet, it's still wrong. The basic problem: the quieter a sound or detail gets, the fewer bits of resolution are used to represent it. In 16-bit recording, there simply aren't enough bits to represent very low level details without distorting them with a subtle but audible crunchy digital halo of quantisation noise. In a 24-bit recording, ther…

If your mastering is done competently, you really aren't going to be able to hear it in a realistic scenario. Which is why:

  "Talking about dynamic range completely misses the point."
isn't really sensible. It's the use of dynamic range that decides how much useful resolution you have when quantizing a signal. This is really why higher bit depths on record and mixing are useful - they let you be sloppier with the inputs without losing much information before you've had a chance to work with it. It still doesn't gain you anything fundamental but it does mean if you got the levels a bit wrong you can salvage it. Higher bit rates here are excellent.

There is nothing magic about 24 bits here. Record something with 48 bits but set up your equipment all screwy so your only actually using the first 8 bits... and you've got an effectively 8 bit recording.

In real world applications the codec is giving you trouble with the low amplitude stuff, not the quantizer. Not that in realistic situations your equipment is likely to be able to generate this cleanly anyway.

   "24-bit doesn't need tricks like dither - because it does the job properly in the first place."
No. Dither isn't a trick, it is a fundamental approach to quantization error at any depth.

On playback, the issue goes the other way around. If you've mastered things correctly you'll be using the available dynamic range of the output in such a way that the information content of your signal is well represented. This is sufficient at CD rates for all practical listening scenarios.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#137
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think that's not obvious from the title of the article: 24/192 are useful downloads for the sake of editing.

[deleted]

The number after the slash in this conversation is 192kHz (sample rate), not 192kbps (compressed bitrate). The "44100Hz PCM audio" you see on your CDA/WAV/FLAC source, before lossy encoding, would be "192000Hz PCM audio" instead. Unlike bitrate, this number does not affect the "quality" of the sound (unless it's really low), but rather acts as a lowpass filter, dropping out the frequencies above 0.5x of it.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#138
post #26

I can't hear a difference between 96khz/44khz in it's raw form. However, I can tell the difference from effects in audio mixing. The extra detail can really make a difference in how well an audio effect VST works. I have a 96khz/24bit interface that I use and ATH-M30X headphones, and I can tell a difference between at least some 24bit FLAC files and 16bit highest-quality-possible MP3s. I was mixing my own music and t…

For those interesting in different versions of an album where it was mastered by a different audio engineer, you should check out the Steve Hoffman forums: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/

Or even the same engineer years later.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#139

This article hits close to home: before I became a programmer I worked as an audio engineer at a fledgling studio in my hometown. The amount of misinformation / junk-science in the audio world is preposterous. There's a religious-cult of an industry that feeds off the ignorance and placebos of its participants. I have many friends who swear by their What.cd 24/192 FLAC vinyl rips and spend hundreds of dollars on audi…

this is the first mention of what.cd outside of the tracker scene i ever saw. funny when you think about it.

Re: 24/192 music downloads make no sense

#140

The single worst thing that harms audio quality is excessive compression. It's ruining everything, I'd say. Heck, I'm sure everyone who knows their worth would agree that compression harms audio quality. Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war edit: compression as in dynamic range compression, not data compression like mp3 in audio

The irony is that extreme dynamic compression only became popular after all of the mediums we listen to (CDs, MP3, digital radio, etc) went digital and we got >90 db dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio. Tapes and records are typically less than 60 db. So our digital music is capable of being as dynamically expressive as our ears but we clamp/ruin the dynamic range down to <20db.

There's a fundamental difference between analog and digital, though. On digital you have to stay well away from the limits or you will get extreme artifacts. On analog, you can stomp on the limits, and reconstruct the original signal with filters (analog or digital) after the fact, because tape doesn't simply stop responding, it just responds less as the inputs get more extreme.
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