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Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

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Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#131
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is someone who was more likely to be harassed by LEO's going to have a different outlook on the engineering/programming of an internet-based social media service? Not buying it. Is it more diverse? Sure. Does it matter at all for the task they are performing? I don't see how it does. >(sidenote: I was recently told by a black guy that African American is worse than black when used as an identifier) For some - it'…

>How is someone who was more likely to be harassed by LEO's going to have a different outlook on the engineering/programming of an internet-based social media service? One potential example would be that someone who has unfairly been targeted by the police may have higher privacy concerns and also be more aware of possibilities for the government to abuse information and even violate rights; things that can happen wi…

I'd like to take the time to thank you for answering in good faith - rather than assuming I had asked in bad faith. So, thank you.

Unfortunately I'm not able, in good faith, to take a stand for or against your argument. Consider this conceding the argument, but not being entirely convinced (allow me to explain).

Initially, I would like to reject it. Because as a libertarian-leaning trans, I fall under both examples you cited. Concern over potential abuse of PII, government overreach, and sexual identity (the concern over gender identity is similar in that regards). But I also fall under the "white, male" label.

However, I do understand the argument that a more targeted individual may be more capable of identifying potential issues. I feel this is contextual and often results in too many "maybes", "potentials", and "possibilities" to be entirely convincing.

"They maybe might have the potential to maybe see a possibility for something that might have the potential to maybe have the possibility of being abused." is not something I find convincing. Though it is technically correct and I have to concede that.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#132
post #100
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author mentioned unfair, non-technical criteria being applied to candidates, with the effect being that talented minority engineers were being filtered out of the hiring pipeline.

How is that a reason for lobbying that only minority candidates be treated fairly. Fix it for all, or don't expect my sympathy.

Umm... it isn't. Removing a barrier with a discriminatory effect would remove it for all.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#133
post #121

I see many people here being skeptical about the arguments for diversity, and asking what the utility is for Twitter. But part of the question is about the utility for minorities as well. This debate is really about minorities being shut out of yet another high-paying industry because they [didn't have a computer growing up/couldn't get in to some brand-name college/didn't have a supportive childhood environment/othe…

What I'm hearing is that we should get Ben Horowitz and Lil Wayne to make an album together.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#134

I've been working for over 20 years in tech at 10+ different companies around the Valley, and I can count on 1 hand the number of direct coworkers that were black, and on 2 hands the number of coworkers that I indirectly worked with that were black. I don't believe this is due to any sort of racism, but rather due to the education system in general. Trying to solve the diversity issue at the hiring end, when the numb…

Role models matter tremendously too, and that's something that we don't see much, something that's a real problem.

Now, I'm biased toward capability. I think progress is made almost entirely by people who possess both talent and will to power. But that's innate, and evenly distributed across racial and gender lines. So differences in outcomes are, broadly, due to privilege (specifically, resources). If someone has access to education and support, they'll do better than someone who does not, all other things being equal. Racist and sexist results are because of our failure as a society, not racial or gender inadequacy.

But anyway, about role models. For an ambitious child, the limits of "success" are the limits of what they see. That's what they see in their parents and their parents' friends, their neighborhood, etc. Their role models. If the most successful people you see growing up are doctors and lawyers and engineers, you imagine your own success as being a doctor or lawyer or engineer. If the most successful people you see are drug dealers and slumlords... well.

There are very few black engineers in this country. They're underrepresented. Because of this, smart and ambitious young black kids don't get "engineer" as a role model. They may have never met an adult who makes software or hardware for a living. So they have no frame of reference, no concept that this is "success". It's a big problem.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#135
post #121

I see many people here being skeptical about the arguments for diversity, and asking what the utility is for Twitter. But part of the question is about the utility for minorities as well. This debate is really about minorities being shut out of yet another high-paying industry because they [didn't have a computer growing up/couldn't get in to some brand-name college/didn't have a supportive childhood environment/othe…

What I'm hearing is that we should get Ben Horowitz and Lil Wayne to make an album together.

We should get that just because it'd be awesome.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#136
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a beneficiary of privilege, it makes me uncomfortable when people point out that racism and sexism exist. Such as the privilege of being the majority race in the local neighborhood even if you are a minority at the national level or the privilege off being the majority of the voting population. What bothers me the most about conversations dealing with privilege is that the louder someone talks about others, the g…

I saw a kind of disturbing statistic recently... white males are only 31% of the population, but they're 66% of police officers, and 95% of prosecutors. Not to mention 85% of elected officials. That's a lot of concentration of power.

>white males

This means I get to throw out your entire point, right? /s

>That's a lot of concentration of power.

Depends if you are talking race or sex. For sex, you just need to look at areas like the Duluth model of domestic violence or the disparity in sentencing favoring women even when adjusted for the same crime to see that this doesn't do a thing for the average male.

Compared this to how the rich, regardless of race or gender, have an unfair advantage within the legal system to see that sex/gender doesn't matter much.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#137
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the real world doesn't revolve around newtonian physics. It's quantum physics.

This is a social level question, not a physical one?

It's called "metaphor". A lot of social network analysis research is based on physics. Please look it up and learn, and if you still disagree feel free to criticize.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#138
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the black perspective on how to better serve people who are in ferguson?

My belief is that there probably isn't one. I'm still waiting for someone to provide one. As a Bayesian, I can certainly tell you how my perspective differs from folks like Leonid Pekelis or Evan Miller. As a person who leans towards parametric statistics and modelling, I can tell you how my perspective differs from the machine learning types. Why is it so difficult to provide the (alleged) black perspective?

I think you're only considering the theoretical/mathematical side of software development. Sure, you can argue (and I would agree) that math is isolated from culture, and as such, a programmer's race can have no impact on how well he or she implements bubble sort.

But software development is not just about CS theory. You're selling a product to people, and thus you introduce the human factor. If say, Facebook one day realizes they need to appeal to female users more to promote growth, does it not make sense that having female team members would be useful? That if Apple sees China as a growth market having Chinese team members will help them better target that userbase?

Obviously, there is no binary tree that is more friendly to the Chinese market, or black, or gay markets etc. But you can definitely change the UI, or messaging, or features that better speak to a specific culture. When architecting a feature in Facebook, a hispanic engineer could suggest a family-focused feature since she knows that family is very important in her culture. That's not to say a white male team of devs couldn't do a great job of satisfying a Hispanic user, but that a more diverse team might do an even better job.

That's a very business-centric take on the issue. Another, more noble side to it is that there's very likely a lot of people from underrepresented minorities who could be high quality software devs but because of their socio-economic status they were discouraged from pursing that career. A more diverse workforce, won't lead to quick results, but it helps.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#139
It really strikes me that Twitter allows such a high degree of politicization in the workplace given the adverse nature and the risks it entails if left unchecked. Office politics sucks enough already, we don't want to bring another element to the workplace to make matters worse for everyone. I don't want to see the office turned into political front lines where parties form and people take sides especially in challenging and turbulent times when the political discussions heat up and get very nasty.

Also, I'd like to point that this fellow engineer comes across as bit pushy with his agenda (It's very obvious that has one). He's treating Twitter as a political organization where he's using his position as a conduit to further his goals as an activist advocating for change which is in my opinion very troubling and unhealthy for any business.

Also, it is worrisome that he didn't perform his duties as a diversity officer[?] efficiently as it seems to me that he was only concerned about his own people, African Americans. (What about other francophone Africans? Foreigners? People of other ethnicities and regions like MENA ..etc?) He didn't seem impartial to me at all and all what he cared about was lobbying for his own group only and this is not really commendable. You don't join a company and start lobbying for certain outside groups like that and expect a smooth sailing. If you're turning the company into a political battle field, you should be ready to face the consequences of your actions.

This brings to another equally important point which is the apparent feud or problem with the VP of Engineering regarding recruitment decisions. This activist engineer was very ambitious and at the same time shortsighted in his plans to make political gains in the organization and not expect opponents to show resistance or experience friction throughout the process. He clearly wanted to influence the decision making process if not tow and subordinate the whole department to his department which in my opinion is very naive thing of him to do and clearly revealed his motives that what he's after is more power in the organization and not reaching a more egalitarian system or environment.

It was all a power play for from the get go and he wasn't very good at it because you don't expect to encroach on someone's turf and not face a backlash or pushback. Even the most level-headed and good tempered person would turn territorial in these situations of adversity and things get ugly that could lead to tensions and strenuous relations between department within the organization.

Finally, his quitting and cop out sealed it for me as to my assessment of his account because no activist worth his salt would bail out and leave the cause he's fighting for like this. Change doesn't happen overnight and you gotta invest heavily and believe truly in your cause to start seeing progress. So, maybe he's more suited to work inside a political organization that's aligned well with his worldview and affiliation where they favor more chip on the shoulder type but he's certainly not a good material or asset and to have on your pro team or in your business.

Re: Twitter's only black engineer in leadership quits

#140
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How is someone who was more likely to be harassed by LEO's going to have a different outlook on the engineering/programming of an internet-based social media service? One potential example would be that someone who has unfairly been targeted by the police may have higher privacy concerns and also be more aware of possibilities for the government to abuse information and even violate rights; things that can happen wi…

I'd like to take the time to thank you for answering in good faith - rather than assuming I had asked in bad faith. So, thank you. Unfortunately I'm not able, in good faith, to take a stand for or against your argument. Consider this conceding the argument, but not being entirely convinced (allow me to explain). Initially, I would like to reject it. Because as a libertarian-leaning trans, I fall under both examples y…

The key thing is that I'm on neither side of the debate. I see merits to both sides and look for a way to work out both. Also, I like to work on arguments for any side even if I don't agree with that side (I have sometimes devil advocated for positions just because no one else would touch them).

Personally, at the current time, I see too many problems with quotas for them to be useful. Namely is the perception problem, where people (including the one hired) will think that their race/gender/etc. had more to do with them getting hired than their skill, causing all sorts of problems. At the same time, I do see merit in fighting against known biases and issues that push out minorities.

I dislike both the over PC nature that leads to Donglegate and the bro-culture that leads to common inappropriate comments and behavior.

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